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To: boatbums
"Yet this "doctrine" is not found in Scripture specifically...

That is because neither I nor the Catholic Church accept the modern doctrine of Scriptural exclusivity; that is the theological construct that all of the Revealed Word is and is only found within the Canon of Scripture and more specifically, within those Pauline letters intended for the Gentiles. It ignores the Word contained within the Apostolic Traditions.

"There is way to much negative history to overcome to seriously claim infallibility of the Magesterium."

Are you ready to similarly condemn the ministry of Jesus based upon the conduct of His Apostles, in which one doubted Him, one denied Him in his moment of need, and one openly betrayed Him?

High office in an organizational church, we can see, does not guarantee that man is lead by God."

Of course it doesn't, but although the Church aspires to perfection, it is comprised of people, burdened by original sin and human weaknesses. That is which is is an institution that moves exceedingly and at times painfully slow and distributes decisions, doctrines and dogma across a Magisterium comprised of over 31,000 current bishops and their successors.

398 posted on 06/15/2011 9:31:08 PM PDT by Natural Law (For God so loved the world He did not send a book.)
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To: Natural Law
That is because neither I nor the Catholic Church accept the modern doctrine of Scriptural exclusivity; that is the theological construct that all of the Revealed Word is and is only found within the Canon of Scripture and more specifically, within those Pauline letters intended for the Gentiles. It ignores the Word contained within the Apostolic Traditions.

Of course you reject it. Y'all HAVE to reject it because the doctrine of the sufficiency of the Scriptures for the faith excludes such erroneous thinking of men being able to determine, no mandate, what other Christians MUST believe in order to be saved. At one time, the church believed that Apostolic traditions WERE contained within the Bible. In fact, the Bible was specifically honored as the repository of the faith. Of course, this had to change when dogmas were invented that they knew were contrary to the written word. What had to happen was a reduction in the primacy of Scripture and the primacy of "tradition" took its place. Of course, traditions were whatever these men of the time decided they would be. I do not understand the facade of pretending Holy Scripture and tradition are not contradictory. If they were in accord, Scripture would still be preeminent simply because it was recognized as the infallible Word of God. Traditions, as being the thoughts and actions of men, could NEVER be held as infallible because there was no objective source of judging them.

Are you ready to similarly condemn the ministry of Jesus based upon the conduct of His Apostles, in which one doubted Him, one denied Him in his moment of need, and one openly betrayed Him?

No, of course not. However AFTER they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit and completely surrendered to the leading of God, they ceased being in error and denying him. Whenever they taught under the authority of Jesus Christ and by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they were teaching the whole truth. This truth they later committed to writing and these letters and treatises were dispersed throughout the Christian churches for their edification and knowledge. Those same writings we still have today and their authority and truthfulness is STILL in effect. As long as we hold to them and depend upon God's leading and illumination of the Holy Spirit, we can know we are in the will of God. No one has any license to go out and invent new doctrine and hold all the body of Christ to obey it if there is no Scriptural warrant. Why did the Roman Catholic Church invent the doctrine of Papal infallibility? Something that caused the rift with the Eastern Orthodox? That's not all that separated them. Why did they assume such power to declare something for which there was not only no Scriptural basis but was not even held "traditionally" in the early church?

Of course it doesn't, but although the Church aspires to perfection, it is comprised of people, burdened by original sin and human weaknesses. That is which is is an institution that moves exceedingly and at times painfully slow and distributes decisions, doctrines and dogma across a Magisterium comprised of over 31,000 current bishops and their successors.

I would think any organization that claims such power over the lives of all Christians better have stricter controls over its leaders than has been demonstrated in its history. Perhaps the reason why there is such blatant and gross sin coming to light is to expose to those who weld such power just how unwarranted their self-professed infallibility is to God. For many Christians, the contradiction was all too obvious and when there was no sign of repentance or humility they left. Men like Luther never stopped being Christians they became better ones by standing up to corruption. Rather than kicking him out and persecuting him, the "magesterium" should have gotten on their knees and begged God's forgiveness for their excesses, greed and false teachings. Instead, they stubbornly refused and God continued to add to his church those who were saved - the spiritual body that it has ALWAYS been.

402 posted on 06/15/2011 10:15:00 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Natural Law; boatbums
That is because neither I nor the Catholic Church accept the modern doctrine of Scriptural exclusivity;

MODERN? God's Word always was and always will be. ONLY the proud would want more than God's Word alone - they are the 'JESUS, THE WORD, ISN'T ENOUGH' crowd.

Are you ready to similarly condemn the ministry of Jesus based upon the conduct of His Apostles, in which one doubted Him, one denied Him in his moment of need, and one openly betrayed Him?

Conduct of the apostles? What did they do - rape young children or cover up the actions of those who did? Did they bow to idols? Pray for the dead? They were HS filled and raised the dead and healed the sick. That's His ministry - they had the POWER once they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

Where is that with your leaders? None existent. They dig up the dead to honor them. For being in business for so many years - they produced nothing but more man made doctrine. After 3.5 years - His apostles were changing lives making disciples by teaching the Gospel, The Good News which is ALL about Jesus.

What's the excuse of the 'I'm ALL yours, Mary' church?

That is which is is an institution that moves exceedingly and at times painfully slow and distributes decisions, doctrines and dogma across a Magisterium comprised of over 31,000 current bishops and their successors.

That's their problem - not adhering to God's Word alone. Building up an empire with all it's pomp - instead of being simple servants of The Lord who HEAR and OBEY - is disobedience. No blessings with that 'kiss the ring' attitude as it has NOTHING to do with His Kingdom. Jesus didn't come to start an institution - that's man's idea to honor man.
406 posted on 06/15/2011 11:19:22 PM PDT by presently no screen name ( The Palin Party: The Party of Patriots.)
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