Did Mary Have Other Children?

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry ^ | Unknown | Matt Slick

[HarleyD]

One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).

As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?

The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)

• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."

An initial reading of these biblical texts seems to clear up the issue: Jesus had brothers and sisters. But such obvious scriptures are not without their response from Catholic Theologians. The primary argument against these biblical texts is as follows:

In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.

There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.

Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.

• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

In both of these verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers, but His cousins, then who is His mother and who is the carpenters father? In other words, mother here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55, refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet, the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though carpenters son refers to Joseph, and mother refers to Mary, brothers does not mean brothers, but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless it is obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers.

Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm

There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."

He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."

Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.

To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.

Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?

Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.

The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.

It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.

[Titanites]

Nobody I know enjoys looking at that

CLOWN FORMAT
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[Titanites]

I do think your slightly clever slightly creative harsh personal assault deserves an honorable mention

I suppose a whiner might claim it was a personal assault.

Maybe this will help.

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infringes upon anyone's bogus claim to Photobucket ownership or use
of Photobucket bandwidth - whatever that may be.)

[Iscool]

Weren't you one of those defending Nestorianism?

Why? Nestorians don't believe Jesus is God???

So, do we now have another one here fixated on an Ishtar-Mary goddess?

I'm not fixated...The people that I know who are bible believers take it for granted that you guys, although they convinced you that you are venerating Mary, are in fact worshiping Ishtar, or one of the many names she goes by...

The names your religion attributes to Mary have been in use long before Mary ever showed up...

The pagan Romans were worshiping the Queen of Heaven and the mother of God when your religion was taken in by the pagans...

Nothing new...Mary, the mother of God was around long before Jesus showed up...Just a different name is all...

[Titanites]

Why? Nestorians don't believe Jesus is God???

Partly.

The people that I know who are bible believers take it for granted that you guys... are in fact worshiping Ishtar

Well, that's what happens when they take things for granted and don't really know what they are talking about.

The names your religion attributes to Mary have been in use long before Mary ever showed up...

So what. The name "Christianity" was in use long before the church of the Lazy Boy showed up on the scene.

The pagan Romans were worshiping the Queen of Heaven and the mother of God

That's why they were pagans.

when your religion was taken in by the pagans...

Don't believe everything you read in the comics.

Mary, the mother of God was around long before Jesus showed up

That's not Christian belief.

Just a different name is all...

So you guys keep claiming. Pretty soon y'all might believe it.

[Quix]

Awwwwwwwwwwww

my heart bleeds purple peanut butter . . .

LOL.

[Titanites]

Awwwwwwwwwwww my heart bleeds purple peanut butter . . .

Soundd like some more psychos' linguistics.

[MarkBsnr]

Weren't you one of those defending Nestorianism?

Why? Nestorians don't believe Jesus is God???

So to speak. Not the Christian Trinitarian God, for sure.

The pagan Romans were worshiping the Queen of Heaven and the mother of God when your religion was taken in by the pagans...

We converted the Roman pagans and gave you the Bible. You're welcome.

Nothing new...Mary, the mother of God was around long before Jesus showed up...Just a different name is all...

We think that she was about 14 or so. I suppose that you might think that that is a long time.

[Jim Robinson]

If you feel FR is not your cup of tea, please do us all a favor and just log off. I hate long goodbyes and I hate being trolled by smart asses.

[boatbums]

hmmm... and how come I never saw or see any of your posts criticizing your cohorts for doing this? For years your posts telling these cohorts to stop it were silent. Then suddenly the shoe is on the other foot and all the cribbing starts

I HAVE posted to "my cohorts" - though I do not abide by an us vs. them approach - so I can't help it if you have missed or ignored them. I do not think I have ever noticed you doing what you accuse me of failing to do. I'll stand by my posting history, will you do the same?

[boatbums]

I think I've found another Secret Mary Society site. It's described by St. Louis de Montfort in http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/SECRET.HTM.

Though he doesn't exactly describe a "society", he certainly tells about "The Secret of Mary". In it, he speaks of a secret that the Most High God revealed only to him by the Holy Spirit. He emphasizes that: TO FIND THE GRACE OF GOD, WE MUST DISCOVER MARY. He declares that;

God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills.

Since Mary produced the head of the elect, Jesus Christ, she must also produce the members of that head, that is, all true Christians. A mother does not conceive a head without members, nor members without a head. If anyone, then, wishes to become a member of Jesus Christ, and consequently be filled with grace and truth , he must be formed in Mary through the grace of Jesus Christ, which she possesses with a fullness enabling her to communicate it abundantly to true members of Jesus Christ, her true children.

There is much more that, as far as I know, no attempts have been made to remove or further clarify what this Catholic saint teaches. I think it explains quite a bit about why there is so much resistance to disagree with anything the magesterium has proclaimed about Mary. To do so would be grounds for excommunication and therefore a sentence of Hell if not repented.

[Quix]

That’s NOT at all my feeling.

I passionately care about FR.
I passionately care about and support FR’s goals and values.
I passionately care about you as a person.

I’m sorry I’m evidently faulty in communicating that effectively.

I will try to be more effective at that.

[Quix]

hmmmmmmmmm

[Mad Dawg]

And it's nice to see you, too. Today in my secret society we thank God for being the Way he is. So my prayer is; That we all be caught up ever more intimately into the life of the Most Holy Trinity: Domine, exaudi orationem meam.

So, in concise to the point of opacity response to you, two things: The BIGGIE is when (if ever) does "misbelief" reach to such severity that it interferes with salvation?

The second is a proposed distinction between what one "must" believe in general and what one must be teaching to teach with the Church.

I can see, with your prompting, a devout Christian Jew praying, "Lord, I'm not so sure about letting those Gentiles in. Nevertheless not my will but thine."

However, if, after the Jerusalem council he teaches and preaches that the Gentiles must be circumcised, etc. SOMEBODY needs to do something.

How about that?

[STARWISE]

As a Catholic, I find your mocking, anti-Catholic rhetoric appalling, outrageous and offensive to the extreme. How you all can be allowed to post such scurrilous bigotry and blatantly hateful and demeaning remarks here about my faith, ANYone’s Christian faith of another denomination or any FReeper’s personal faith is beyond me.

Who made you the arbiter of anyone’s religious beliefs?

There’s only ONE who knows the true heart and intentions of each of us, and He’s not a FReeper.

God help you.

[STARWISE]

He’s not a FReeper... on earth.

[Joya]

Of possible interest, ping.

[Religion Moderator]

This is an "open" thread in the Religion Forum. It is the only thread type posters may argue against other beliefs, deities, religious authorities, etc. It is a town square format and can become contentious.

All other RF threads are restricted.

No debate of any kind is allowed on prayer or devotional threads.

No antagonism is allowed on RF threads labeled "ecumenical."

And non-members are not allowed to post on RF threads labeled caucus, e.g. "Catholic Caucus."

If you are not comfortable with the "open" RF style of debate then IGNORE them altogether and post on one of the other thread types.

[STARWISE]

I see.

I will avoid it in this already very dark and coarsened culture, while I wonder how this type of abusive and vitriolic arguing “against other beliefs” enhances FR. But that’s just me.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

[D-fendr]

One might look at the content from the banned site and compare it with the content of one's own post and ponder similarities and how and why this might be.

[D-fendr]

Well, it can be educational.

For example, if you wanted to know what it might have been like living in certain areas of the U.S. with the Know Nothing Party in the mid-19th century…