Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
Because he was there, and the brothers and sisters were not?
Why would Jesus have waited until his last moments to actually find someone to take care of his mother, if he didn’t know she had a husband and family to actually take care of her?
Why would Jesus worry about who was going to take care of his Mother, if she was really the blessed virgin and under the direct care of his father?
Maybe Jesus just didn’t want the haters of Him who were in the crowd to realise Mary was his mother, and possibly lash out at her, so he said out loud that she was John’s mother.
That makes more sense than thinking Jesus left the critical care of his mother to a last-minute chance encounter with John while hung on a cross.
He's crazy.
well said.
INDEED.
A Methodist MD/charismatic cut his
B’aHai sp? son out of his will because he wanted to insure that his resources went to the cause of Christ alone.
Of course Christ would have chose John the Beloved over wavering or unbelieving half-siblings for His mother.
Even knowing that some or all would eventually believe, He’d still want her with the MOST CHRIST-LIKE of disciples instead.
συγγενής
suggenēs
soong-ghen-ace'
From G4862 and G1085; a relative (by blood); by extension a fellow countryman: - cousin, kin (-sfolk, -sman).
So there's the word for Mary's cousin, Elisabeth...
Are people supposed to believe you just because you say it, or do you believe it just because someone from your religion said it and told you to believe it???
The context of the verses and the culture make clear
that ‘cousins’ or any other role but
blood half-siblilngs
would have made NO SENSE.
The point of the verses is AN EMPHASIS ON THE INTIMACY OF SIBLING RELATIONSHIPS.
NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE.
Evidently your strength is not in psycholinguistics.
YOU ARE WRONG!!! Mary never died...She just went up...
Accuracy in labeling for the lurkers.
As long as the Vatican cultists hereon propagate the more outrageous cultish beliefs, practices and dogma, I expect to continue to use the more accurate label.
I personally think all Proddys should.
RC’s persistently call us
haters, bigots, separated, heathen, pagan, etc.
Evidently the shoe doesn’t feel as comfortable on the other foot.
What a sweet, harsh, viscious, haughty personal attack.
Obviously that must have been learned on ISHTAR-MARY-GODDESS’ LAP?
Exactly...If Mary and Joseph did not have sexual relations, they were never married...
I suppose if one took those verses in isolation without the context of the rest of Scripture, they could conclude it can only refer to siblings. However, narses's post shows otherwise, in the context of more than an isolate verse.
Now, I do realize that in responding I'm potentially subjecting myself to accusations of being a member of a Vatican Cult, of worshipping something called an Ishatar-Mary, of using a fabricated rubberized dictionary, of bowing to a fictional magicsterical, etc. but that comes with the territory where flame bait is sanctioned.
I completely understand that those who have relied on interpreting Scriptures for themselves and building their own personal religion need to have their comfort food, though. Until about a decade ago I didn't realize that under a thin veneer the vast majority of non-Catholic teaching is heresy or convenient rationalization. Hopefully you'll come to recognize that same reality before it's too late. Regards
That is correct. I don't spend my time in the psychos' linguistics of Ishtar-Mary, Vatican Cult, magicsterical, rubberized dictionary, etc.
1Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples." 2And he said to them, "When you pray, say: "Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread, 4and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation."
Nowhere are we instructed by Jesus to pray to anyone but the Father.
Praying to other humans does not honor God or Jesus.
Good grief, if I need surgery, I'm not going to the doctor's mother. I'm going to the doctor himself.
Too bad.
What do you know about typology?
No one ever died touching Mary...That ought to be a huge clue to you that Mary was NOT a 'type' of the Ark of the covenant...
Be careful, now, you never know when you're going to run afoul of someone who has a set of big plastic keys like babies teeth on, keys that grant them the power to bind and loose both on earth and in heaven. Anyone who donates $50 or more to the appropriate sect can get a set keys and then pray over a hankie and make it an intercessor for you because there is only a single intercessor. Is it all clear now?
IOW, you're exactly right.
It was not in use at the time, sorry. Thank you for playing, though, it’s always nice to see the extremes some folks will go to in order to deny the truth.
have a nice day
I didn't. I simply put out the relevant Scriptures and got that rant in return.
My argument is that the Scripture says Jesus's "brothers" were James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.
Judas (or Jude), according to Wikepedia is the author of the Book of Jude who also claims to be the brother of James (of the Scripture quoted to you).
It looks like no argument, even direct Scripture "His Brothers" has any direct meaning to you here.
It is the Sophistry approach to the Bible that chooses it's own wisdom over the Scriptures. In this case to say that James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas were not sons of Mary.
I wonder what she would have to say about that being their mother?
Jewish culture does not have a cult of virginity. Cults of virginity were associated with Pagan cults. Hence the cult of Mary ever virgin is solely a Pagan cult. The Roman "church" has much pagan syncretism. Mary and Joseph were Jews in a Jewish culture.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
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