Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).
“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).
“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).
Origen
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
The Bible Codes indicate yes.
Particularly Genesis, which I think Jews hold was dictated letter by letter.
ZC? What you say?
Was the Torah dictated Word by word?
Well, it depends, I guess, on what one makes of the idea of communion -- which is, BTW, in the Spirit, whom we hold to be God, and with the Son, whom we also hold to be God.
Mary is with our Lord, and our Lord is with us, sicut promisit, to the end of the age.
Mary cannot hear prayers uttered by us on earth, so to speak, on her own toot, anymore than she could be immaculate (as we hold) or assumed (ditto) or the Mother of the Lord or exist at all in any way on her own toot.
Whatever gifts she has, whatever goods I have, come from God and from nowhere else.
Now We read in Romans 8:17, if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. ...
And in 1 John that we will be like Him for we will see Him as He is.
So I don't think it's a slam dunk that the saints in heaven cannot/do not hear our prayers.
I think if we have to play to the lurkers there ought to be some feature like in those TV shows where they dial in and vote on our posts. It reminds me of when I had my radio show. Here I am in this closet and I have no clue if anyone is listening at all! Weird. If I weren't sure of angels and saints tolerating my blather I would have quit and gone home.
As I understand it, the Torah was dictated not just word by word, but letter by letter. It was dictated to Moses, who wrote it down.
Over and above that, the Torah is what chr*stians call the "logos," the blueprint/DNA of creation. According to a mystical teaching it was written by G-d "974 generations" before the Creation. The universe is in fact derivative of the Torah and G-d created it by using the letters of the Torah.
There are sites out there with far better information than I can give you, or you may wish to ask some of the Orthodox Jewish FReepers.
Yeah, but not being a complete dolt, I don't go to those who disagree with my Church for my information.
Your religion claims that the Saints in heaven bypassed purgatory as well as the last Judgment and are now permanently in heaven..
FALSE.
The SUBSET of the saints in heaven whom we acknowledge as saints bypassed purgation. But those who are being purged or have been purged are (or will be purged) are also saints. That's why Dante portrays Purgatory as a happy place.
they were determined to be Saints by your Church, not God...
SORTA False, definitely misleading.
Only a Nominalist or a Solipsist would think that determination causes essence. For Realists, determination is about what we see andsuggests there are realities we do not see.
Why do you think one of our Feasts is "All Hallows"? Answer: because we know and celebrate that there are saints in heaven who we do not know to be saints.
"Canonization" does not "make" a saint. It acknowledges a saint and legitimizes his/her cult (in the proper, not tabloid, use of the word.) But to 'canonize" is not to say, "NOW he's a saint, while he wasn't yesterday." It is to say, "If you want to say Dominic is a saint, the Church backs you up."
after you've suffered enough for what you've done on earth...
Vague
What many, especially those misled by Nominalism do not get is that REALITY is organic and God's justice is not different from His mercy.
The "penalty" due to sin is like the "healing due to illness". Sin not only offends God but damages the sinner, just as misusing muscles (or bashing one's rib when one has a dizzy spell) is not only bad in itslef but leads to damage to the rib's custodian.
It does not get better without an appropriate period of pain and discomfort AS WELL AS soothing, hot compresses, and rest.
The process of healing the vice of lust and promoting the virtue of charity is only a penalty or punishment in one sense. You might as well call it "therapy."
But yet, no one knows if they are going to land in purgatory or Hell
False
Both Dominic and the Little Flower knew (or claimed to) that they were going neither to Purgation or to Hell.
I am pretty confident that if a piano fell on me today I'd go to Purgatory. I don't "presume" on it. I press on.
And more importantly, how can a Church with half the people headed for Hell instead of purgatory call itself the Body of Christ...Is some of the Body of Christ going to Hell???
The same way a field with wheat and tares can call itself a wheat field.
Some of my body, say the hair and fingernails I've trimmed, will not be resurrected on the last day. (I'm also hoping to be freed of several pounds of ugly fat.)
Some of Christ's body will be cast out similarly.
How can you all be one when no one knows whether they will end up on opposite sides of eternity???
Nominalist Falsehood
A baby does not know itself to be human. Does that mean it is not human?
MUST we KNOW ourselves to be something before we ARE something?
Clearly not. Therefore this argument EITHER needs more steps OR is nugatory.
they will end up on opposite sides of eternity[emphasis duh]
Here it is gang. Out and out Manichean dualism. "Opposite sides." The same people who say the body is an empty shell, thus calling into the question the NEED for a resurrection of the body (if it's useless trash, why go to the 'trouble'?) also have a bi-polar (not in the psychiatric sense) cosmos in which there are opposite sides.
So evil is, for them an existent, a thing that is, while it is for us the privation of being, and our ancient enemy already barely exists and is working his hardest toward not existing at all, toward his own destruction.
I hope the lurkers will commit themselves to God not as they understand him but as he knows himself to be and enjoy all His good gifts. I do not plead like a lawyer. I proclaim like a happy guy, a guy in love who wants all to know how wonderful his beloved is.
...If half the people go to Hell instead of purgatory, how can you say you are all in communion with the Saints in Heaven??? How can you have communion with the people in purgatory??? And more importantly, how can a Church with half the people headed for Hell instead of purgatory call itself the Body of Christ...Is some of the Body of Christ going to Hell??? How can you all be one when no one knows whether they will end up on opposite sides of eternity??? I hope lurkers will ponder these questions...
The living, even if they do not belong to the body of the true Church, share in it according to the measure of their union with Christ and with the soul of the Church. LinkThe information on the communion of saints goes on to say the above, which includes you, Iscool. So your love for Jesus makes you a team player too.:) I'm not completely sure what you are getting at regarding purgatory, but no one desiring hell is part of the faithful that the communion of saints embodies, and those in purgatory are already being prepared for heaven, so they will not go to hell either. It's good you are concerned about the lurker. I too am concerned. As the world seemingly gets tougher and tougher to navigate with pure thoughts and a kind loving heart, the Catholic Church's "tools" become more necessary to attain a joy-filled existence, even through sorrowful (even dreadful) situations, and I invite all to Come Home to the Catholic Church, where the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, Confession cleans up a filthy soul and Adoration allows tears of love to flow.
Please don't accuse me of lying. The CC is lying, not I. I'm merely reporting the lie. And it's NOT a secret so don't act like you are the last one to know it or post that they are 'my words'. They are not mine - for centuries it's been said - Catholics worship Mary and your 'I'm ALL yours, Mary' pope concurs.I call things like I see them, PNSN, but since Free Republic has their own set of rules, I'll back off and simply say you are misleading people. The Catholic Church has not lied regarding their love for Mary which you have misinterpreted as worship. Alex posted a good article by Cardinal Bacci on this. If you get the opportunity please read it, and let me know if you feel Cardinal Bacci is lying too.
Posting a link to what the RCC teaches which nullify God’s Word? LOL!! Whose Kingdom is it? Whose heaven is it? Whose Word are we taught to hear and obey?
Talk about misleading people!
MD,
Well, it seems we’ll have to agree to disagree; I don’t see it as very nebulous, really — the verses you quote don’t really indicate anything about whether or not prayers are heard by anyone other than God — but they are definitely good verses nonetheless! :D
Don’t go anywhere; your kind, reasoned discussion is a blessing.
Hoss
Right that we are under the Law??? Right that we will receive salvation based on whether we follow the Law correctly??? Absolutely not...
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Do these verses need an explanation???
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
And how do we establish the Law??? By going back and being put under the bondage of the Law??? Not at all...
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Does any one get that verse???
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
It is not complicated...If we love our neighbor as Jesus instructed, we fulfill all the Law, IN OUR HEARTS...If we really love, we will follow and obey the 10 Commandments, in our hearts, our souls...Our flesh will rebel, regardless...
Posting a link to what the RCC teaches which nullify God’s Word? LOL!! Whose Kingdom is it? Whose heaven is it? Whose Word are we taught to hear and obey? Talk about misleading people!Does this mean you did not read the article? There is nothing in the piece that nullifies God's Word. And how can you "LOL" at the Catholic Church, when it is they who nourish souls with the Body of Christ? Mother Teresa of Calcutta once said she could not get by even one day with the work that she does without receiving the strength required from Jesus in the Eucharist? What do you think of that comment?
???
No, God’s Will does not go against His Word.
I didn't send those verses out to establish the actuality of "the intercession of the saints." I sent them out to establish the possibility, and the 'category" of a tertium quid between saints as "mere" mortal critters and saints as something kind of like Greek gods.
I think the texts say that God will share his stuff, and his Son's stuff (to riff on the "inheritance" language) with us, because of a relationship in the Spirit.
If that's agreed upon, then I think I can argue toward the POSSIBILITY of Mary and the rest "processing" all the prayers etc. -- all enabled by the Spirit and by being "in Christ" and a new creation.
And that's even without dealing with the question of "time in heaven". That's a two ibuprofen argument, at least.
My post to you was a courtesy post only.
I agree - God abides to His own Word and not like some think - since God can do anything - He will. That’s their ‘leaning unto their own understanding’ kicking in - secular human reasoning.
The Vatican/RCC practice idolatry and it's not an opinion but a fact.The Catholic Church does not practice idolatry.
I don’t rely on proof texting. The Communion of Saints is what the Church always taught and is part of the Apostles’ Creed and is consistent with scripture.
You can believe whatever you wish - unless of course that contradicts Calvinism and you have no choice in the matter. /s
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