Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).
“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).
“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).
Origen
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
Well then, any murderous, lying, stealing, adulterous, scum who has once said the magic words is still on the way to heaven where Jesus Christ will smuggle them in in His diplomatic pouch so the Father won't see thier sin, right?
If you do not accept that the Eucharist IS Christ and that Christ and His Word are one, the Word coming to us through His Church just like the Eucharist does, then you have accepted nothing, yielded nothing to Him, and picked up no cross of any sort. Christ commanded that we take up our cross and follow Him, yet there is no cross for those who apply the Lego Block Method of Scripture Interpretation since every burden can be interpreted away. If every burden can be interpreted away, it will be. That’s exactly why we’re told the way that seems right to man leads to destruction, because our understanding will never and can never rightly interpret Scripture and His Will. Only by being a part of the body of Christ can we understand His Word and know His Will, that’s why He established His Church. So we could become part of the body of Christ rather than being abandoned to our own understanding.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So, there's no risk due to our not being under the law yet we're warned that unless we forgive others we won't be forgiven? Forgiven for what if there is no law we're to obey?
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Where does it say you've lost your free will and cannot cease to walk with and be in Christ Jesus?
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
The verse you quote but with some context rather than being used according to the Lego Block Method of Scripture Interpretation which just pulls verses at random with no regard for context. Where does it say it's impossible for us to yield ourselves to sin and disobedience? And if we so yield, we're then once more servants of who we obey rather than of Christ. How, if there's no law for us, is it that we're warned against disobedience and the consequences of disobedience?
You, a catholic are trying to quiz a Holy Spirit filled born again Christian who believes God’s Word is The Final Authority on The Word?
How so catholic of you.
I gave you an abundance of Scripture - right now your question to yourself should be ‘what am I doing believing man made doctrine that opposes God’s Holy Spirit Inspired Word’? The same Word that will judge you one day.
It’s the HEARING and OBEYING OF His Word that’s important - gaining knowledge to dispute it is demon territory. Did God really say?
It's a very simple quiz: Do you know there is a difference between words of Scripture and the Incarnate Word.
God’s Holy Spirit Inspired Word’? The same Word that will judge you one day.
The same Word? Jesus will judge us, not Scripture.
You posts continue to exemplify confusing the two. In a word that would bibliolatry.
Even most Protestants know better.
I do appreciate your replies; It took a while, but I believe you've made your views clear finally.
Um, which interpretation?
Yours?
Jehovah's Witness?
Mormon?
Baptist?
Presbyterian?
Methodist?
Aryan Nation and Church of Jesus Christ Christian?
The Reverend Jeremiah Wright Trinity United Church of Christ?
Christ is the Word and Christ comes to us in the Eucharist so that we can be a part of the body of Christ. Only then can we begin to understand Him as our Savior and as the Word. As long as it is your own understanding that you rely on you worship your own understanding, not Jesus Christ.
Wait! Who says it doesn’t suit?
I broke a rib which means that when I am not doing what I must (or arguing with poison handling snake drinkers)(I’m not as think as you drunk I am) I just lie around and try no to laugh. Sorry I didn’t say something.
More ibuprofen and back to sleep.
So beautiful.
It sounds beautiful bud did you ever wonder how all that works out???
Your religion claims that the Saints in heaven bypassed purgatory as well as the last Judgment and are now permanently in heaven...
And yet, they weren't determined to be Saints till years, decades or centuries after they died and they were determined to be Saints by your Church, not God...
Apparently when you go to purgatory, that's the stagecoach to heaven, after you've suffered enough for what you've done on earth...And you know once in purgatory, you'll ultimately end up in heaven and pass the last Judgment...
But yet, no one knows if they are going to land in purgatory or Hell...No one knows if they are in any communion with any Saints, ever, while on this earth...If half the people go to Hell instead of purgatory, how can you say you are all in communion with the Saints in Heaven??? How can you have communion with the people in purgatory???
And more importantly, how can a Church with half the people headed for Hell instead of purgatory call itself the Body of Christ...Is some of the Body of Christ going to Hell???
How can you all be one when no one knows whether they will end up on opposite sides of eternity???
I hope lurkers will ponder these questions...
Nope...Your pope often is one of them that determines that flour isn't flour...Since the recipe is written, you follow the recipe, not a pope...And when a pope tells you flour really is tobacco, stick with the recipe...
While the Word refers to God and the word normally refers to the written words of God, it's ALL God...
The words of God are Spiritual...They are the words of God...The words in that book are the words that God is speaking to Creation...
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Do you believe that??? Do you understand that verse???
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
The words we read in the bible are the same words that created light...
Do we worship the words of God, the bible??? Nope...But we recognize there is something different; something special about that book, about that word/Word...It's not like any other book ever written...
Hey, you're describing my church, and your Church...
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
When you sit there and disagree with and argue with the Bible, doesn't it seem that the problem may be with your logic and understanding of the bible???
If you know of a Christian who doesn't sin, he's not breathin'...
The story of the Prodigal Son was written for a reason, not just for entertainment...
You missed the face palm that just took place at my computer desk...
Context you say???
You start out with a quote from the back side of the Cross, given to people clearly under the Law, and try to justify your theory by then posting scriptures from this side of the Cross where people are under grace...And the scripture even tells you we are no longer under the law...But you don't want to believe it...
Do you ever really read the scriptures or do you just quote the talking points from your religion???
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
You went from before the Cross to after the Cross and skipped right over this one...Your pope didn't bother to tell you about that verse???
Ain't that the truth...A lot of people are educated right out of believing God; so they think...
Maybe you should chow down on two or three of them crackers at a time when you get in line...One don't seem to be enough...
You’re closer, not making the same errors. You’ve wisely put some distance between yourself and the view of PNSN.
For you: Was New Testament Scripture dictated by God word for word?
Reread 1st Cor 15.
Do this as oft as you drink the blood of the New Covenant, in remembrance of me...
How often do we imbibe the blood of the New Covenant? It might be argued, every time we confess our sins through Him.
Consider from where our understanding is coming.
God the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and His work sanctifies the believer in fellowship with Him by taking his knowledge and making it a sanctified understanding processing it as faith in our heart, then available for recall and application in our spiritual walk.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Which puts the verse you quote in an entirely different light. So, you see, I do read the Scriptures not talking points made from random verses glued together the way you use them. Too bad you didn't read the whole chapter.
I can see that having a handful of Cheerios and a grape popsicle hasn't done you much good.
True -- however, if you're using this as a proof text, you're wrong: in context, Christ is answering the Sadducees about who's wife a woman would be after the Resurrection, not whether or not those who are with The Lord hear prayer.
Mary is with The Lord in Heaven...she does not and cannot hear prayer because she is not God. If she is prayed to, she is the focus of idolatry.
Hoss
LOL.
No sweat.
Here’s to your speedy recovery . . . oh, wait. No more drinks for you!
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