The argument about language is poorly presented in my humble opinion. In the first three centuries, the Gospel and many old testament books were translated into well over a hundred languages. As Christ triumphed in the universal growth of Christendom, for which the oldest Churches of east and west deserve all the credit, one of the tools utilized to spread the Word and Christ's church as a small “c” catholic and universal church was the universal language of the educated reader: Latin and hence the Vulgate.
We would all be wise to bless that history of the instruction of Christ to “go forth...”.
Sure claims can be made that clergy (coming from sinful mankind) used the Latin instead of the local languages to keep mystery and superiority. Likewise it is certainly true that this usage of the Vulgate was to spread the faith. That argument can be held in a civil debate of history.
Likewise, there are plenty of issues with the KJV being the alpha and omega of translations that don't go along with your insistance upon no-translation being required and many Protestants that look with reverence on the KJV take offense when it is belittled by others in a debate on this forum that doesn't stick to strick historical context.
What cannot be argued is that the reforms of the leftists high-jacking the Second Vatican Council's efforts are being set right within the Roman church by Pope Benedict and I am a non RC that says, "Bravo" to "God's Rotwiller" (as the left terms Ratzinger) and celebrates his election and efforts for my brothers in Christ in that denomination. This tread is about a small part of that effort to turn back the leftist non-orthodox.
The are plenty of religious forums across the Internet where Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, Anglicans, Calvinists and all the many denominations can have arguments about the details for true and false, correct and incorrect, valid and invalid expression and exercise of Christianity. We belittle our fellowship as conservatives on this forum however, if we don't, at a minimum, acknowledge that HERE we all are at least (small “o”) orthodox in our belief.
To do less minimizes our earthly efforts for our nation's salvation which, of course, are always subordinate to our Heavenly Salvation.
You are a smart and experienced poster. Give your fellow posters the same credit and show Christ's love from your heart as I know you can. Save the denominational one-ups-manship for other religious debate forums. We're busy saving the USA.
Again, thank you.
Instruction may not be the purpose of the Liturgy, but the Liturgy is instructive. Much of our teaching (doctrine, dogma) is stated or referenced in it. Poor official translations and really bad personal paraphrases can distort or even invert the meaning of the Liturgy and the doctrines it presents. The current efforts on the part of BXVI to provide an accurate English translation of the Liturgy, and to restore the Latin usage are aimed (among other things) at presenting our beliefs correctly.
To the rest of you, I want to thank you for your responses to my provocative post. For the most part they were civil. I'm a big boy and can take it.
I am going to take the occasion of KC Burke's long post to finalize my thoughts on this matter and cease and desist on this topic. Not that it hasn't been fun, but if I have provoked your thinking and have caused a little more bible study, I'm a happy camper. It was never my intention to try to convert Catholics to Protestants. If we all believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins, that he rose again so we could have everlasting life, that we are sinners who have repented of our sins, and we accept Him as our Savior, then we are brothers and sisters in Christ. The TRUE “CHURCH”.
Romans 14:4 (New International Version)
4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
So, not judging, just questioning, examining, discussing.
Now on to KC Burke....
“You started out saying, “No joke.” and perhaps you intended it as a deflection for your false criticism against fellow Christians, but it hardly suffices from a broadside attack at the seriousness to which each member of this forum holds their faith.”
deflection? sincere. broadside attack? hardly.
“seriousness to which each member of this forum holds their faith.” With all due respect, if your faith is so weak, that you can't defend it with facts & scripture, or you blindly follow it without question, then it isn't a faith that you have, it is only a “Religion”.
“The argument about language is poorly presented in my humble opinion.”
Perhaps I was unclear. The bible, God's word, was written in two languages. Hebrew and Greek. Are you questioning His wisdom in choosing these languages? Did He make a mistake? Should He have used Latin instead? (I know you don't think that, just making a point).
When reading, or hearing the Holy scripture, I want the closest I can get to the original meaning, yet in a language I can understand. While most translations have value, and I don't discount the Holy Spirit's power in imparting understanding to me, God did have His word written down in a book for us to read and study. He decided the time, the place, and the language for this all important book to be written. Since ONE WORD can influence the entire meaning of a verse, I want to do my very best to understand the original meaning. Not what some priest tells me it means. Not what some Pastor tells me it means. I'll listen, but I will decide for myself by reading His word.
I often check my concordance for the original meaning in Greek and Hebrew for pivotal words in passages.
“Likewise, there are plenty of issues with the KJV being the alpha and omega of translations that don't go along with your insistence upon no-translation being required and many Protestants that look with reverence on the KJV take offense when it is belittled by others in a debate on this forum that doesn't stick to strict historical context.”
We can agree on those points. The KJV is not for today. It is not written in the English language understood today. (The same could be said about Latin).
“The are plenty of religious forums across the Internet where Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, Anglicans, Calvinists and all the many denominations can have arguments about the details for true and false, correct and incorrect, valid and invalid expression and exercise of Christianity. We belittle our fellowship as conservatives on this forum however, if we don't, at a minimum, acknowledge that HERE we all are at least (small “o”) orthodox in our belief.”
I didn't know about these “rules”. Dr. Brian Kopp started the thread not me. I was commenting on the use of Latin, which is what the thread was about.
“Save the denominational one-ups-manship for other religious debate forums. We're busy saving the USA.”
Your argument is with Dr. Brian Kopp. “one-ups-manship”?
unaware of my doing that. Maybe it's in the translation of one-ups-manship.
I do agree that we need to defeat the racist, Black Liberation Theology, Muslim, traitor & chief, who is not my brother in ANY sense of the word. He, and his minions are out to destroy this country with the help of Satan. We must (attention, Christian speak coming) stand in the gap.
Again thank you for a lively debate. Hopefully we all learned something, I know I did. I must move on to other things. May God bless America.