Posted on 05/05/2011 9:38:04 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
He is the Word, the printed subset of what He taught isn't.
He is the Word, the printed subset of what He taught isn't.
Sorry, I'm still not used to putting multiple people in the right place.
Though I find the intent of scripture passages lifted from the surrounding context can be diminished.
FWIW, I do not subscribe to the theory that God dictated the Bible. Inspired, without question but not unerringly literal.
Yes. - And I would say you are wrong.
I could well make your same doctrinaire arguement about Christianity as a whole, and you would refute my accusations of “arrogance” with what -
I can tell you at the church I attend, a member of the SBC, I have never heard leadership or a congregant state that we are the One True Church and all others are heretical. We believe Christ died for our sins on the cross and arose again on the third day, just as the catholic church believes, but we are not vainglorious in our belief that other Christian demoninations are heretical. We pray for those that have a false sense of righteousness and stray from biblical truths.
“It is not possible to apply the criterion of inspiration or of absolute truth in a mechanical way, extrapolating a single phrase or expression,” the Pope wrote in the message released May 5 at the Vatican.
So, what are you doing? I am not being facetious. You are counter-minding your own argument.
Since I am not bound by your Pope, I will address 1 Cor 4. Paul was using an analogy for instruction of Christians, he never, ever, never demanded to be called "Holy Father" or anything near that. If someone HAD done that, Paul would have shut them down flat. How do we know this? Because, if you read 1 Corinthians, it is clear Paul was never pointing to himself or looking for glory. He knew that belonged to God alone.
1 Corinthians 4: 2-17 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you! 9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. We have become the scum of the earth, the garbage of the world—right up to this moment. 14 I am writing this not to shame you but to warn you as my dear children. 15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
Was Paul the real father of Timothy? No! Was Paul setting himself up as the Pharisees had done (and Christ had condemned?) No! Look to the example of the angels - they do not demand worship, nor do they allow anyone to bow down before them:
Revelation 19:10 "At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!"
Does the Pope do this when people call him "Holy Father" and bow down before him? He corrects them, right? He tells them 'Don't call me that, and don't bow down - worship God!' Right?
Again, all of this is instructional - and speaks to the very reason that scripture must be read, meditated upon, and studied - - which is EXACTLY what the Pope is "warning" Catholics NOT to do in this very article. Don't you recognize the utter sophistry of your own argument?
Psalm 1: 1-3 "Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the law of the LORD, and who meditates on his law day and night. That person is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither— whatever they do prospers."
The rest of the story from the article:
“An interpretation of the sacred writings that disregards or forgets their inspiration does not take into account their most important and precious characteristic: that they come from God,” he said.
The Catholic position is that the Holy Spirit inspired the biblical writers so that “human words express the word of God,” he said.
“Through his word, God wants to communicate to us the whole truth about himself and his plan of salvation for humanity,” the Pope wrote. “A commitment to discovering ever more the truth of the sacred books, therefore, is a commitment to seeking to better know God and the mystery of his saving will.”
A keynote, Skypilot -- whenever you read an article posted like this by you know who, read the entire post -- it is generally excerpted pretty well so that you can't see the real information like the one above
You most certainly are vainglorious. In the same way some supercilious pew warmer is when they catagorically say something like “Pat Robertson doesn’t speak for God!”
What such people fail to realize is in order to say someone else is speaking without authority, they are implicitly claiming for themselves the same authority, albeit in reverse, they are denying to the one they are denouncing.
You can not overturn the decision of a judge unless you are a higher judge.
“...he never, ever, never demanded to be
called “Holy Father” or anything near
that.”
What he demands to be called is irrelevant. Either paul os directly contradicting Christ, or you don’t grasp the point Christ was making. There is no other alternative.
My money’s on Paul.
Let me boil your argument down to its essence: When Paul considers himself to be a “father” of a congregation it’s OK. Paul knows his limits.
When a local pastor is considered the “father” of a congregation, it is because the man is setting himself up for glory and worship, like the Pharisees.
At least you aren’t judgmental.
Exactly. Regards
Glad I'm well out of that . . . um . . . religion (don't want my post to get yanked).
Well said, SkyPilot!
Well heavens to betsy, we can't have any "rigid doctrinal points of view" in the Catholic Church now, can we? And they wonder how liberalism got into the Church!
::Sigh:: I wish Verdugo were here.
Hard to interpret ancient Hebrew.
The Ugarit texts seem to help.
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! The first five books of the Bible, the Torah, were written by G-d in their entirety and dictated to Moses letter-for-letter. You obviously get your Biblical . . . ahem . . . "knowledge" from late nineteenth century liberal German Protestant "scholars." I guess that means their blasphemies are now official Catholic teaching.
Just where does "scripture" say that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are adapted from Babylonian mythology? That's what you believe, right?
Yes, it's not sufficient, but it's still totally inerrant.
Why can't Catholics tell the difference between sufficiency and inerrancy? Is it a genetic disorder?
The problem is that he doesn't believe it.
Aren't the expressions "All scripture" and "every scripture passage" synonymous?
Cause that’s the Catholic argument.
No it's not.
The Catholic argument is that anything in the "old testament" that violates the laws of nature didn't actually happen, and the first eleven chapters of Genesis are mythology. That's what the Pope is saying, and I don't understand how you could miss it.
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