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Skeletons in the Catholic Church’s Closet [review of Showtime's "The Borgias"]
Beliefnet ^ | April 8, 2011 | CATHLEEN FALSANI

Posted on 04/27/2011 8:10:30 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

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To: the_conscience
a) I'm sure some of them are inflicted with the disease but the point was that their inactions allow the disease to grow.

I don't disagree with that statement, but I don't see why you brought them up.

b) It's a basic misconception on the nature of man. It's a continuation of 19th century Liberalism but goes back to the fall of man. It's those who have power believing they know what's best for individuals and they believe they should engineer who lives and who don't and the actions of those lucky enough to live.

I think the disease is pure selfish hedonism, not control. People getting abortions aren't doing it because they are doing what's best for an individual they have power over. They are doing it for convenience and because it seemingly makes their lives easier.

c) I'm writing about it now, besides other things.

I won't criticize you for what you do or do not do, but I also wouldn't recommend others questioning people who do more than what they do.

d)No, but if you don't understand the causes behind why someone would kill their own baby then you will probably not be successful in curing the disease.

You can fight against both the disease and its symptoms at the same time. Each and every child saved is a success, even if thousands more are still murdered.

101 posted on 04/27/2011 8:43:38 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: count-your-change
Demonstrations are great street theater.

You don't like demonstrations?

102 posted on 04/27/2011 8:45:02 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Quix; vladimir998

I have no idea how you thought this post was a good response to vladimir998.


103 posted on 04/27/2011 8:46:52 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Quix

I took it as being sincere. Sorry if what I wrote made you think otherwise.


104 posted on 04/27/2011 8:50:09 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Alex Murphy
I'm not ashamed to say I am enjoying the Borgias series on Showtime. I also loved The Tudors. They both taught me lessons about those times and sent me on numerous occasions to online historical information sources. Granted, the producers and writers take "creative" license with many characters and incidents, but it's surprising how much really did happen in the way it is and was portrayed.

Obviously, they cannot produce a drama they claim is based on reality and then make up everything. What I am finding a touch humorous reading on this thread is all the ways in which the "adherents" minimize the debauchery done by those in the highest echelons of their institution. It is also surprising how all the claims of motivations of hate for critical posts during Lent are still being tossed even when the season is passed. I guess there never is a good time to read criticism of our sacred cows yet I see that even Jesus never let an opportunity pass to bring down idols of men's souls.

105 posted on 04/27/2011 8:52:58 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: the_conscience
"Those who have a tunnel vision on curing one of the symptoms miss the disease."

But when that symptom is as catastrophic as the death of 50 million unborn since Roe the symptoms cannot be ignored.

106 posted on 04/27/2011 9:05:02 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: lastchance

No need to apologize.

I understood that you did.

Sorry I gave you any other impression.

May you and your family walk ever closer to God as these END TIMES challenge all of us.

May our focus be on CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED, ARISEN, COMING AGAIN.


107 posted on 04/27/2011 9:08:34 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

Thank you.

May we look in joyful hope for the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


108 posted on 04/27/2011 9:20:06 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Carpe Cerevisi

Well, we are anything but boring.


109 posted on 04/27/2011 9:22:24 PM PDT by Palladin (Sarah Palin in 2012!)
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To: lastchance

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

A great Biblical Exhortation.

Thanks.


110 posted on 04/27/2011 9:40:25 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Natural Law; the_conscience
But when that symptom is as catastrophic as the death of 50 million unborn since Roe the symptoms cannot be ignored.

This holocaust of our time will NEVER be stopped until hearts are changed person by person. In working at a ministry for crisis pregnancies and post-abortion, I know that the root of it all is how an individual "sees" their worth, their value. Women who consider abortion are not all the demonic, selfish whores the "Christian" society self-righteously views them as. There are many, many reasons a woman makes this choice and, in my experience, the prime one is fear - not convenience.

The front lines in this battle are scattered but we must remember that every woman - and her baby's father - are in their own battle as well. Only through the love of God and the grace and mercy of his love can each and every person involved in this decision - mother, father, parents, teachers, friends, society, etc. - have a heart change that turns around the decision of death for the innocent into a welcoming attitude of gratitude for the miraculous gift of new life.

Support your local Pregnancy Help Centers - they are in the trenches every day!

111 posted on 04/27/2011 9:47:55 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
"Women who consider abortion are not all the demonic, selfish whores the "Christian" society self-righteously views them as."

Too often they are scared children themselves or victims of other tragic crimes. We need to treat them as such and work to remove abortion as an available option.

God bless you for your works.

112 posted on 04/27/2011 10:08:23 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: WPaCon
I don't disagree with that statement, but I don't see why you brought them up.

I brought them up because I assumed it took at least a Bishop to approve discipline of someone wayward in your Church. I'm not an expert in your Church's laws so maybe I'm wrong. What does it take to discipline someone in your Church?

I think the disease is pure selfish hedonism, not control. People getting abortions aren't doing it because they are doing what's best for an individual they have power over. They are doing it for convenience and because it seemingly makes their lives easier.

Maybe we can agree it is both/and? If the elites can create a culture in which people are so selfish that they are willing to kill their children then they can achieve their goals without the appearance of coercion. I believe I heard recently that amongst single black women the abortion rate is somewhere near 80%? This doesn't occur unless their is a strong cultural influence promoted by the ruling elites. It's pure racism. The ruling elites want to keep these people dependent on the government so they can control them and offering free government funded abortions keeps them under their control and their population.

I applaud those who work to save every baby they can. But God gives different people different responsibilities and I resent those who attack others for not engaging in the same activities as what God may have placed them.

113 posted on 04/27/2011 10:14:32 PM PDT by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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To: boatbums

Well said... and a big Amen!


114 posted on 04/27/2011 10:19:15 PM PDT by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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To: Natural Law
But when that symptom is as catastrophic as the death of 50 million unborn since Roe the symptoms cannot be ignored.

No it can't. But in a democratic republic you're limited to either working to vote in candidates who support life or start a revolution. If you go for the former route then one cannot expect to change culture overnight.

115 posted on 04/27/2011 10:26:28 PM PDT by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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To: WPaCon

I love demonstrations...if I’m buying a vacuum cleaner. There are better places to spend the time and effort.


116 posted on 04/27/2011 10:45:15 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Natural Law
Too often they are scared children themselves or victims of other tragic crimes. We need to treat them as such and work to remove abortion as an available option.

You are correct. And imagine this scared child being hounded at all sides to "get rid of it". Granted, some misguided girls see a baby like they would a toy. Attention, unconditional love - or so they think. Yet rarely do they ever hear of what is really best for that baby. Rarely do they ever get the message that that baby is a real person, too. Teens seldom think very far ahead and most do not have a good understanding of consequences. The best tact would, of course, be to reach them BEFORE they start being sexually active. Begin in homes, schools, churches, parents, books, movies - whatever it takes - and undo the false message they have been getting for decades now about "free love" or uninhibited gratification. Teach them to respect themselves and their bodies and the wonderful miracle of procreation. That they each have worth and value and each child deserves to be loved and cared for. Parenting is not easy.

They see women all around them having sex with boyfriends or strangers even and they want to emulate them. How often when we were kids did we say we couldn't wait to be a grown-up? The idea of freedom to do whatever we want when we want? Since birth control and abortion on demand, sex with no unwanted consequences is the message society has been screaming for. And that false promise and its real consequences have come home to roost. We have STDs today that weren't even heard of when our parents were kids. Skyrocketing divorce rates, unwed mothers, abortions, welfare, poverty, HIV/AIDS, with no end in sight on taking back those awful results of "free love". In ain't so free after all!

God's word and His commandments are meant for us because he loves us and not to keep us from having fun. They are the "instruction manual" for a happy and healthy life. We, as Christians, have the responsibility to get that message out there to the world. Like I said, change will come one heart at a time. Keep up the good work, too! If we don't do it, the "world" sure won't.

117 posted on 04/27/2011 10:49:22 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Natural Law
And one more thing, I really like what Dr. David Reardon(sp?) is doing on the abortion front. His main message that I think is the key in this battle is something like, “We should not be working to make abortion illegal, we should work to make it UNTHINKABLE.”
118 posted on 04/27/2011 10:56:11 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: WPaCon

Neither does he most likely.


119 posted on 04/28/2011 4:00:29 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Copts, Nazis, Franks and Beans - what a public school education puts in your head.)
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To: the_conscience
I brought them up because I assumed it took at least a Bishop to approve discipline of someone wayward in your Church. I'm not an expert in your Church's laws so maybe I'm wrong. What does it take to discipline someone in your Church?

I'm no expert either, so I don't know.

Maybe we can agree it is both/and? If the elites can create a culture in which people are so selfish that they are willing to kill their children then they can achieve their goals without the appearance of coercion. I believe I heard recently that amongst single black women the abortion rate is somewhere near 80%? This doesn't occur unless their is a strong cultural influence promoted by the ruling elites. It's pure racism. The ruling elites want to keep these people dependent on the government so they can control them and offering free government funded abortions keeps them under their control and their population.

It looks like we mostly agree with each other. I do see this component of liberal elites poisoning culture for their goals, but on the whole, I think our culture's problems are mainly due to a large loss of faith (which the elites contribute to) and to our unprecedented prosperity that weakens the will to resist evil.

I applaud those who work to save every baby they can. But God gives different people different responsibilities and I resent those who attack others for not engaging in the same activities as what God may have placed them.

I can see your point. Maybe this can be due to the Catholic vs Calvinist mindset. (You're a Calvinist, right?) A Catholic may believe you can choose to save the unborn and think it wrong when you do not, but a Calvinist may think that saving the unborn is just not in God's plan for them.

120 posted on 04/28/2011 6:51:06 AM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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