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The Church Fathers-Mary: Without Sin
The Church Fathers ^ | 70AD-584AD

Posted on 04/14/2011 9:21:51 AM PDT by marshmallow

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To: presently no screen name

You (collective not personal) modern day Protestants are the ones who belong to an upstart sect that came up with man made innovations that contradicted the constant witness of the faith. Not Catholics not Orthodox.

Even the Reformers would not recognize your disdain for the Virgin Mary and your denial of her role in the economy os Salvation.


141 posted on 04/14/2011 1:58:16 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Secret Agent Man
I get the teenage reference -- my father's 89 going on 16 ... Without going into specifics, let's just say he's a handful! I wouldn't exactly say I'm angry with him, but he certainly does try my patience : )
Sinless people do not bring false charges against another person, much less the perfect and sinless Son of God.
I don't understand the meaning here of "false charge." What did Mary say that was false? What did she accuse (charge?) Jesus of? I'm asking this with reference to my curiosity about equating sinlessness with omniscience. If, as the Bible translation explicitly states, Mary did not understand, how could anyhthing that she said be construed as sinful?
142 posted on 04/14/2011 2:08:08 PM PDT by eastsider
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To: lastchance
You (collective not personal) modern day Protestants

HEY! Watch it - don't put labels on me! I don't care that you say 'collective'! You got it? I BELONG TO JESUS and not a denomination. That's too much of a stretch for catholics to grasp as they are unteachable and unreachable but that's not my problem.

I am a child of The Most High and walk in His blessings daily. Got it? Now you know how to address me - so save the liberal tactic of 'labeling' for your liberal friends!
143 posted on 04/14/2011 2:17:12 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Quix

If Mary thought she was without sin, she wouldn’t have called God her savior because she wouldn’t have needed one.

So by calling God her savior when she never sinned, she lied, which is a sin, which means she DID sin and need a savior.

Catholics just don’t think through what they believe.


144 posted on 04/14/2011 2:46:14 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Quix

Who cares what those the Catholic church calls its church fathers may have thought?

Wide is the road and broad is the path that leads to destruction and many there are that find it. Consensus does not make truth.


145 posted on 04/14/2011 2:47:48 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: lastchance
Even the Reformers would not recognize your disdain for the Virgin Mary and your denial of her role in the economy os Salvation.

See if catholicsm hasn't warped your mind so much you can't get this. I COULD GIVE A FLIP what any 'man' thinks. It's all about JESUS! So take your liberal tactic 'or what others think' - the liberal intimidation tactic - and have it for breakfast! Because conservatives don't eat the poison you are dishing out!

Got it? Mary has NOTHING to do with any salvation. RCC rocks withe liberalism - always pushing propaganda and use any liberal tactic to do it!


146 posted on 04/14/2011 3:17:13 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: marshmallow
You seem to reject the Word of Elohim
and follow the religion of man (i.e. church fathers)

All created beings need a Messiah for salvation.
It is in YHvH's Word.

Repent and seek the face of YHvH.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

147 posted on 04/14/2011 3:21:54 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Celtic Cross
One of the main talking points in your posts is "Catholicism = liberalism = socialism = pawn of the Devil" etc.

Thanks for telling me.

I really fail to understand why you feel that is a credible or even useful line of attack.

Attack what?
148 posted on 04/14/2011 3:29:36 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Celtic Cross
Oh, you are mistaken. It is a general truth that protestantism causes and perpetuates socialism and Communism.

LOL!! I'll let others laugh at that propaganda from the left!
149 posted on 04/14/2011 3:38:52 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Celtic Cross; paladin1_dcs

Learn how to properly divide The Word and, in the meantime, leave it to those who do. Remaining unteachable is not a conservative trait.


150 posted on 04/14/2011 3:44:23 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
HEY! Watch it - don't put labels on me!

We don't have to.

Matthew 23: 34 18 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 19 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38 Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. 39 I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

You guys label yourselves with your Pharasiacal opposition to the Church that Jesus created and gave His authority to.

You got it?

Quite adequately.

Matthew 23: 13 7 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven 8 before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.

I BELONG TO JESUS

Matthew 7: 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Scripture says that those who reject the Church reject the One who sent them.

Luke 10: 16 Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." 17 The seventy (-two) returned rejoicing, and said, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us because of your name."

I believe that you are very vocal about rejecting the Church.

I am a child of The Most High and walk in His blessings daily.

You keep saying that and you keep showing that you aren't. Why the disconnect?

Matthew 7: 15 9 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So by their fruits you will know them.

You are well known on the RF.

151 posted on 04/14/2011 3:44:41 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: presently no screen name
I COULD GIVE A FLIP what any 'man' thinks. It's all about JESUS!

Odd. Your posts are full of 1) yourself and 2) how anti Catholic you are.

Mark 8: 34 He summoned the crowd with his disciples and said 8 to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel 9 will save it. 36 What profit is there for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? 37 What could one give in exchange for his life? 38 Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this faithless and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

Your posts indicate that you are more attached to handing out crosses than to carrying them. I also notice a singular paucity of Gospel in your prose - whereas we bring the Gospel to the heretic, the apostate, the pagan and the ungrateful. You're welcome.

152 posted on 04/14/2011 3:48:56 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: presently no screen name

I am not trying to be flippant here but do you understand the term economy of salvation as opposed to Salvation? Salvation does indeed rest in Christ alone. But Mary certainly played a very important role in the economy of salvation. Which is God’s plan on how Christ would come to save us. He came to us through the womb of the Virgin and became man.

It is not my fault that so many sects, perhaps yours is amongst them, seem to have no trouble just jettisoning the faith of 1500 years for a hodge podge of beliefs made to appeal to those who can not be bothered to examine what has been believed by the majority of Christians since the age of the Apostles. In that you are the Liberals.


153 posted on 04/14/2011 3:51:18 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: presently no screen name
"Remaining unteachable is not a conservative trait."

So you are saying conservatives should bent and change with the times? Change their values with the times? How is that a conservative trait?

"LOL!! I'll let others laugh at that propaganda from the left!"

I was wondering what your reaction would be; truth be told, I essentially took what you said about Catholicism and changed it to protestantism to see your reaction to your own words.

154 posted on 04/14/2011 3:54:49 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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To: presently no screen name
>>>Attack what?<<<

Come now, let us not play dumb.

155 posted on 04/14/2011 3:56:30 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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To: presently no screen name

I used the term Protestant because that is the term widely used to describe those who follow Reformed Christianity and its offshoots. It does not describe a specific denomination. I will not address you as Child of The Most High as really that is a bit long. Not sure if you are saying you don’t belong to any sect. Would Reformed believer suit you?


156 posted on 04/14/2011 3:57:36 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Celtic Cross

Ah history, readily available for all yet rarely given much thought.


157 posted on 04/14/2011 4:00:00 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: D-fendr
Left one out: Martin Luther "But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..." And you are leaving out the fact that Martin Luther was at one time a Roman Catholic priest. Takes a while for people to get rid of all the unbiblical teachings they have been taught . Martin Luther did not come out of Babylon far enough
158 posted on 04/14/2011 4:00:24 PM PDT by Lera
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To: presently no screen name
Learn how to properly divide The Word

Sure. From the folks who know how to do it, not the theological descendants of Simon Magus. Jesus gave the authority to the Church, not to every man who wanted to set up his own belief system. Paul was not kind to those who believed or taught another gospel.

Galatians 1: 6 5 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel 7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 7 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

Doesn't bode well for the children of the Reformation, does it? The ultimate end of the Reformation was the destruction of Christianity. We Christians are keeping it together (with His authority) and bringing the Gospel to the whole world - and Jesus will be with us always.

Matthew 28: 18 11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Jesus does not say that He will be with any Tom, Dick or Calvin that pulls his beliefs out of his navel each morning.

159 posted on 04/14/2011 4:03:12 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
Odd. Your posts are full of 1) yourself and 2) how anti Catholic you are.

It's not odd you would see it that way considering you are a Catholic. Try and see the truth that seems to evade you.

IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS! And JESUS is THE WORD and I'M PRO-WORD!


God's WORD is The FINAL Authority


Your posts indicate that you are more attached to handing out crosses than to carrying them. I also notice a singular paucity of Gospel in your prose - whereas we bring the Gospel to the heretic, the apostate, the pagan and the ungrateful. You're welcome.

You are mind reading and looking/reading with catholic eyes on a Christian post. That's your Rx for the day in your confusion. You're welcome - now pick up your cross and go send in a donation to FR for the help you just received.
160 posted on 04/14/2011 4:07:15 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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