Posted on 04/12/2011 7:55:27 AM PDT by bkaycee
Not to belabor the subject, but I was just reading about St. Catherine of Sienna who it is said:
"St. Catherine died in Rome, the spring of 1380, at the age of thirty-three. Jesus is also commonly thought to have died at the same age, and Catherine's idol Mary Magdalen is said to have fasted for thirty-three years.
Over the years Catherine had eaten less and less, claiming that she found no nourishment in earthly food. Instead she received the Holy Communion virtually on a daily basis. This extreme fasting appeared unhealthy in the eyes of the clergy and her own sisterhood, and her confessor, Raymond of Capua, ordered her to eat properly. But Catherine claimed that she was unable to, describing her inability to eat as an infermita, illness. She would throw up what she swallowed, and suffered severe stomach pains, which she bore with patience as another penance." (from wikipedia.org)
She is alleged to have suffered from anorexia mirabilis. So the point is, some people take certain things meant to be "spiritual" and insist they are "literal". Then the reality hits them either as in physical death from starvation or spiritual death from thinking a physical consumption (eating) replaces a spiritual consumption (receiving by faith).
If there is doubt that a baptism was valid, then the person would undergo a valid baptism to remove that doubt.
Sure seems that way to me.
Not the way I read it or the way I was taught it.
I converted as a middle-aged adult, I was a curious, sincerely questioning old catechumen. The wine tastes like wine. If I were taught it should be otherwise, I would have spoke up, believe me.
:)
I think you have well described the difference in Catholic and Protestant views of Sacrament.
>>>>That is the basic element of the confession for it to be a true gift. But that doesn’t guarantee that for someone who has been baptized into an orthodox confession they receives an automatic “transformation”.
As a Catholic I see this as contradiction. The Sacraments are true gifts and/or promises from God. God, on His part, does not renege.
We believe He instituted His Church with authority as the normal means, part of the form, for these gifts of His - but that is another disagreement and discussion.
Thanks so much for your courteous and well communicated posts.
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Official Catechism of the Catholic Church
| 1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.” In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.” “This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.” |
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
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1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
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| 1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ. |
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COMPENDIUM OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH .
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
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271. What is the Eucharist?
1322-1323
1409
The Eucharist is the very sacrifice of the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus which he instituted to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until his return in glory. Thus he entrusted to his Church this memorial of his death and Resurrection. It is a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a paschal banquet, in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.
272. When did Jesus Christ institute the Eucharist?
1323
1337-1340
Jesus instituted the Eucharist on Holy Thursday “the night on which he was betrayed” (1 Corinthians 11:23), as he celebrated the Last Supper with his apostles.
273. How did he institute the Eucharist?
1337-1340
1365, 1406
After he had gathered with his apostles in the Cenacle, Jesus took bread in his hands. He broke it and gave it to them saying, “Take this and eat it, all of you; this is my Body which will be given up for you”. Then, he took the cup of wine in his hands and said, “Take this and drink of this, all of you. This is the cup of my Blood, the Blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgive. Do this in memory of me”.
274. What does the Eucharist represent in the life of the Church?
1324-1327
1407
It is the source and summit of all Christian life. In the Eucharist, the sanctifying action of God in our regard and our worship of him reach their high point. It contains the whole spiritual good of the Church, Christ himself, our Pasch. Communion with divine life and the unity of the People of God are both expressed and effected by the Eucharist. Through the eucharistic celebration we are united already with the liturgy of heaven and we have a foretaste of eternal life.
275. What are the names for this sacrament?
1328-1332
The unfathomable richness of this sacrament is expressed in different names which evoke its various aspects. The most common names are: the Eucharist, Holy Mass, the Lord’s Supper, the Breaking of the Bread, the Eucharistic Celebration, the Memorial of the passion, death and Resurrection of the Lord, the Holy Sacrifice, the Holy and Divine Liturgy, the Sacred Mysteries, the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar, and Holy Communion.
276. Where does the Eucharist fit in the divine plan of salvation?
1333-1344
The Eucharist was foreshadowed in the Old Covenant above all in the annual Passover meal celebrated every year by the Jews with unleavened bread to commemorate their hasty, liberating departure from Egypt. Jesus foretold it in his teaching and he instituted it when he celebrated the Last Supper with his apostles in a Passover meal. The Church, faithful to the command of her Lord, “Do this in memory of me” (1 Corinthians 11:24), has always celebrated the Eucharist, especially on Sunday, the day of the Resurrection of Jesus.
277. How is the celebration of the Holy Eucharist carried out?
1345-1355
1408
The Eucharist unfolds in two great parts which together form one, single act of worship. The Liturgy of the Word involves proclaiming and listening to the Word of God. The Liturgy of the Eucharist includes the presentation of the bread and wine, the prayer or the anaphora containing the words of consecration, and communion.
278. Who is the minister for the celebration of the Eucharist?
1348
1411
The celebrant of the Eucharist is a validly ordained priest (bishop or priest) who acts in the Person of Christ the Head and in the name of the Church.
279. What are the essential and necessary elements for celebrating the Eucharist?
1412
The essential elements are wheat bread and grape wine.
280. In what way is the Eucharist a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ?
1362-1367
The Eucharist is a memorial in the sense that it makes present and actual the sacrifice which Christ offered to the Father on the cross, once and for all on behalf of mankind. The sacrificial character of the Holy Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution, “This is my Body which is given for you” and “This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood that will be shed for you” (Luke 22:19-20). The sacrifice of the cross and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one and the same sacrifice. The priest and the victim are the same; only the manner of offering is different: in a bloody manner on the cross, in an unbloody manner in the Eucharist.
281. In what way does the Church participate in the eucharistic sacrifice?
1368-1372
1414
In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, their suffering, their prayers, their work, are united to those of Christ. In as much as it is a sacrifice, the Eucharist is likewise offered for all the faithful, living and dead, in reparation for the sins of all and to obtain spiritual and temporal benefits from God. The Church in heaven is also united to the offering of Christ.
282. How is Christ present in the Eucharist?
1373-1375
1413
Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist in a unique and incomparable way. He is present in a true, real and substantial way, with his Body and his Blood, with his Soul and his Divinity. In the Eucharist, therefore, there is present in a sacramental way, that is, under the Eucharistic species of bread and wine, Christ whole and entire, God and Man.
283. What is the meaning of transubstantiation?
1376-1377
1413
Transubstantiation means the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of his Blood. This change is brought about in the eucharistic prayer through the efficacy of the word of Christ and by the action of the Holy Spirit. However, the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the “eucharistic species”, remain unaltered.
284. Does the breaking of the bread divide Christ?
1377
The breaking of the bread does not divide Christ. He is present whole and entire in each of the eucharistic species and in each of their parts.
285. How long does the presence of Christ last in the Eucharist?
1377
The presence of Christ continues in the Eucharist as long as the eucharistic species subsist.
286. What kind of worship is due to the sacrament of the Eucharist?
1378-1381
1418
The worship due to the sacrament of the Eucharist, whether during the celebration of the Mass or outside it, is the worship of latria, that is, the adoration given to God alone. The Church guards with the greatest care Hosts that have been consecrated. She brings them to the sick and to other persons who find it impossible to participate at Mass. She also presents them for the solemn adoration of the faithful and she bears them in processions. The Church encourages the faithful to make frequent visits to adore the Blessed Sacrament reserved in the tabernacle.
287. Why is the Holy Eucharist the paschal banquet?
1382-1384
1391-1396
The Holy Eucharist is the paschal banquet in as much as Christ sacramentally makes present his Passover and gives us his Body and Blood, offered as food and drink, uniting us to himself and to one another in his sacrifice.
288. What is the meaning of the altar?
1383
1410
The altar is the symbol of Christ himself who is present both as sacrificial victim (the altar of the sacrifice) and as food from heaven which is given to us (the table of the Lord).
289. When does the Church oblige her members to participate at Holy Mass?
1389
1417
The Church obliges the faithful to participate at Holy Mass every Sunday and on holy days of obligation. She recommends participation at Holy Mass on other days as well.
290. When must one receive Holy Communion?
1389
The Church recommends that the faithful, if they have the required dispositions, receive Holy Communion whenever they participate at Holy Mass. However, the Church obliges them to receive Holy Communion at least once a year during the Easter season.
291. What is required to receive Holy Communion?
1385-1389
1415
To receive Holy Communion one must be fully incorporated into the Catholic Church and be in the state of grace, that is, not conscious of being in mortal sin. Anyone who is conscious of having committed a grave sin must first receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before going to Communion. Also important for those receiving Holy Communion are a spirit of recollection and prayer, observance of the fast prescribed by the Church, and an appropriate disposition of the body (gestures and dress) as a sign of respect for Christ.
292. What are the fruits of Holy Communion?
1391-1397
1416
Holy Communion increases our union with Christ and with his Church. It preserves and renews the life of grace received at Baptism and Confirmation and makes us grow in love for our neighbor. It strengthens us in charity, wipes away venial sins and preserves us from mortal sin in the future.
293. When is it possible to give Holy Communion to other Christians?
1398-1401
Catholic ministers may give Holy Communion licitly to members of the Oriental Churches which are not in full communion with the Catholic Church whenever they ask for it of their own will and possess the required dispositions. Catholic ministers may licitly give Holy Communion to members of other ecclesial communities only if, in grave necessity, they ask for it of their own will, possess the required dispositions, and give evidence of holding the Catholic faith regarding the sacrament.
294. Why is the Eucharist a “pledge of future glory”?
1402-1405
The Eucharist is a pledge of future glory because it fills us with every grace and heavenly blessing. It fortifies us for our pilgrimage in this life and makes us long for eternal life. It unites us already to Christ seated at the right hand of the Father, to the Church in heaven and to the Blessed Virgin and all the saints.
In the Eucharist, we “break the one bread that provides the medicine of immortality, the antidote for death and the food that makes us live forever in Jesus Christ.” (Saint Ignatius of Antioch)
thinking a physical consumption (eating) replaces a spiritual consumption (receiving by faith).
I think we touched on this earlier.
Some call the Holy Eucharist "spiritual nourishment" and some denigrate the "bells and smells" of the Church. There is a key difference in theology and praxis here.
The two - physical and spiritual - can be united in their aspiration for the divine. God also comes to us through our senses. Jesus used mud and His saliva to heal the blind man, the woman who touched His robe, water/living water etc., etc.
The difference between us, as I see it, is one rejects the senses and the physical; the other seeks to integrate it and direct the whole towards God.
Another very visible illustration: Beauty is from God. God's Creation is Good. The more reformed the church, the more sterile it seems to me.
Thanks for your post and the opportunity to discuss.
Thanks very much. Now it seems odd that we made it this far in the thread without your post.
And it brought back memories of RCIA. Sister Susan would be proud.
:)
Is the Incarnate Word fully God or fully human?
The way you were taught it, by the Catholic church I presume, probably has a significant impact on the way you read it.
If you go into it with preconceived notions, of course it will read the way those who have taught you want it read.
We can say the same about all the different confessions.
The best I can tell you is I went in skeptical and I asked the hard questions. It was, for me, an impressive attitude and course of study.
Another falsehood.
I did try to explain it. Old Reggie put up an explanation, a quite good one.
Happy Easter.
Catch you on the flip side.
Happy Easter, Brother Dawg.
Happy Easter.
May The Lord bless all who call Him Lord
with His best intimacy with Him and with all who Love Him this Resurrection Sunday/weekend.
Amen.
Ya know, I’ll bet if you asked a certain someone’s wife if she woke up grumpy in the morning, she’d say, “No, I just let him sleep.” ;o)
>> “...this Resurrection Sunday/weekend” <<
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‘cept that by our way of reckoning, he was resurrected on a saturday evening, not sunday.
Fitting!
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