Posted on 03/09/2011 6:16:29 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
The Archdiocese of Philadelphia announced Tuesday that it had suspended 21 priests from active ministry in connection with accusations that involved sexual abuse or otherwise inappropriate behavior with minors.
The mass suspension was the single-most sweeping in the history of the sexual-abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church in the United States, said Terence McKiernan, president of BishopAccountability.org, which archives documents from the abuse scandal in dioceses across the country.
The archdiocese’s action follows a damning grand jury report issued Feb. 10 that accused the archdiocese of a widespread cover-up of predatory priests, stretching over decades, and said that as many as 37 priests remained active in the ministry despite credible accusations against them.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Peter, the guy you call your first pope, was married. Jesus healed his mother-in-law.
Try again.
These distinctions you fail to make:
1) That all works begin with the grace of God and are carried through to completion by his grace.
2) That God works out no one’s salvation without his cooperation. The apostles, martyrs, saints and even those less are the vehicle by which God has chosen to work out our salvation, and it is only through them that salvation is worked out.
3) Our works, again begun and acted out through grace, do constitute meritorious action.
The fundamental error you make is that you deny the cooperation of men and assent of their will.
Finally, The Catechism of Trent is clearer and also more authoritative than that you cited: unfortunately newer is not better nor is the standard for such disputations. Actually, you’ll soon have me looking through the older Catechism if you keep this up.
An exception does not disprove the rule. Good luck trying to substantiate many others. Celibacy has ever been the norm.
Any reading of history shows the Roman Catholic papacy to be riddled with debauchery, homosexuality, illegitimate children and corruption.
From various first-ups on google, the following men were known and practicing homosexuals...
Pope Paul II (1464–1471) Pope Sixtus IV (1471–1484) Pope Leo X (1513–1521) Pope Julius II (1503-1513) Pope Julius III (1550–1555) John XII (r. 955-964)
The list goes on and one right up to modern day where Pope John XXIII (1958-1963) whose tenure produced "Crimen Sollicitationis" which demanded the oath of secrecy for all those who accuse priests of sexual abuse, and Pope Paul VI (1963-1978) were said to be homosexual.
The practice of celibate priesthood is from the very beginning.
No, it's not. Peter was married. And celibacy wasn't ordered by the Roman church until 1075 when Gregory VII issued a decree barring married men from the priesthood which was later affirmed by the First Lateran Council in 1123.
This came as a direct result of the Great Schism in 1054. The Orthodox church has never required its priests not to marry.
As long as Roman Catholics defend its pederast priesthood, its children will continue to be destroyed by men who are supposed to be protecting them.
Christ told us what these men can expect, millstone and deep sea-wise.
Your own catechism denies this in black and white..."we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life."
The fundamental error you make is that you deny the cooperation of men and assent of their will.
Scripture tells us no man can "cooperate" with God nor "assent" to His wishes unless and until that man is born again by the Holy Spirit who then imputes to that man the righteousness, obedience and faith of Jesus Christ, according to the will of God and not men.
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." -- Galatians 2:16
Rome pats itself on the back for what God alone accomplishes.
Well, both words are used in Scripture, but they are not both requirements for salvation. The only requirement for salvation is the grace of God which He distributes through faith in Jesus Christ.
Good works are the fruit of this faith, the merciful result of the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Good works are the evidence of our salvation, not a requirement for it as Ephesians 2 tells us yet again... Not of works, lest any man should boast." -- Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Do Roman Catholics include these verses in their Bible?
1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? 2If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3This is my defense to those who would examine me. 4 Do we not have the right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 6Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living?
Titus 1:5-9 5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
There was no NT priesthood established in the church. The offices found that are referred to in Acts and Paul's Epistles, are that of overseer, elder, or deacon, and the qualifications for those offices included marriage.
There is no Scriptural precedent for a celibate clergy.
We have James 2:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder.
20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
Celibacy is for those who can handle it.
It was not good for man to be alone, so God created a helper for him. Man is incomplete without a wife.
And even if one CHOOSES to be celibate for the sake of God, that’s a CHOICE. Making it mandatory, a requirement for service, is not Scriptural.
But that never stopped the Catholic church from instituting policy.
Becoming a priest is a vocation and a choice. One may serve God, certainly, in other ways.
Regarding Peter, he was married before an apostle, but tradition has maintained he was celibate thereafter.
Tradition precedes Scripture. Indeed only by Tradition can we know what was the authentic Scripture. You have put the cart before the horse.
All Eastern rites I know only permit marriage for those candidates who are already married. This was much less common in the West. Celibacy has always been the norm. It's basis justified in Scripture as well as in Tradition. You know this. Mt 19:10-12
The Council of Trent: The Sixth Session
You misunderstand my meaning. Without our assent of will, our co-operation (working with God), we cannot be saved.
Moreover, in reading the sixth session of Trent, it seems clear that by grace and grace alone we are saved, though we must do good works else we choose to reject God and lapse from Faith.
St Eckleburg,
I believe the concept is that cooperating to having a weekly blood transfusion from the local shaman and... add in a little sanctimony then... bingo, you may have some excess merit to sell to others.
And elder/bishop (episkopos/presbuteros) is one office, (Titus 1:5-7) and does not constitute a separate class of sacerdotal priests (different word). Rather all believers are priests. (1Pt. 2:5)
And while being single and celibate is certainly a sacrifice (for most) and offers the temporal and advantages 1Cor. 7:7–8; 32–35 expresses, and even more so with the world-changing events of 70AD coming shortly to pass, yet it is still a gift. And even though clerical celibacy is only (changeable) church law, to basically (there are exceptions) requires that all clergy have the gift of celibacy is unScriptural and presumptuous - and is asking for trouble.
While the requirement that a bishop be the husband of one wife, and “having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) may allow some discussion as to whether it wholly excludes a single celibate man, that is to at least be the norm, rather than the opposite as in Rome.
And in which not only must priests normally be celibate - which certainly does not have scriptural warrant or the supposedly required the unanimous of the fathers - but even though married men may now be ordained deacons, yet a married deacon must maintain the celibate state if he is widowed, nor may one marry after ordination.
Note that some RCs attempt to make all the apostles single, but which would require that all their wives all died or left them, which is highly force idea, as marriage was the norm, and they usually followed the father’s lead, and while the apostles did leave “all” (Mk. 10:28) a permanent forsaking would be contrary to the principle state in Mk. 7:10-13 and the requirements of marriage commanded in Mt. 19:1-9; and 1Cor. 7:10,11,16.
And as the word for “wife” is the same as women in 1Cor. 9:5 (”Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?”) then some RCs contend that the apostle’s simply had females ministering to the Apostles as women ministered to Christ (cf. Luke 8:1–3). However, Paul affirms he has such female helpers, (Rm. 16:1,2; Phil. 4:3) and the wording, contrast and scope with their previous state considered renders this a forced (and “private) interpretation. The official RC (NAB) Bible for America has “wife.”
The cart before the horse? This whole statement, were it not so sad, would be laughable. "Tradition has it..."
Where is this provable?
If Tradition precedes scripture, then why do we need scripture? If Tradition is what is needed to PROVE what IS scripture, why not rely on "Tradition" alone?
If tradition precedes scripture, and proves it, then certainly you can show, in Scripture where your claim is true.
Hoss
Really.
So... do you believe God to be sovereign? And...how can God "work out" someone's salvation when they, by the fact they are fallen (and by that nature), hate God? How could anyone in that circumstance "cooperate" with God?
Hoss
Catholics put the wrong thing in final authority.
The Word of God stands forever. Jesus did nothing but condemn the traditions added to the Law in His day. No doubt He would do the same today.
There is no knowledge of Truth outside Scripture. If tradition supersedes Scripture, Scripture is meaningless. there’s no need for it. All we have to rely on then is church tradition.
8~)
“Indeed only by Tradition can we know what was the authentic Scripture”
That is absurd, as “Tradition” is not even a testable medium, but is an amorphous medium which cannot be written and codified as a canon (http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/insights-tradition.htm), and the real authority then is the Infallible Magisterium (IM), as it claims to define Tradition and Scripture. But its authority is effectively itself.
The way writings became established as Scripture was not thru Rome’s IM, which took over 1400+ years after the last book was written to provide a finalized, “infallible” canon (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2661829/posts?page=217#217), but it was established as from God like as Jesus and the apostles were, because of God’s manifest supernatural attestation to them, and by their complementarity, and inherent enduring Heavenly qualities, which placed them on the saint’s best seller list. By such all spiritual authority is established, in proportion to their claims The best church councils could do was to recognize such, but that did not make such writings scripture, nor do they owe the enduring devotion they are given to such.
As for clerical celibacy, this was a developed discipline, and the EOs. also following Tradition, much disagree on this. And see my prior post.
Pope Benedict XVI’s choice as the church’s top official for priests has said that celibacy “is not a dogma,” and that the Catholic church “can reflect” on the subject. The explosive character of the issue, however, was reflected in a “clarification” issued in the name of the cardinal by the Vatican Press Office on Dec. 4. Cardinal Claudio Hummes, 72, of São Paulo, Brazil, was nominated Prefect of the Congregation for Clergy on Oct. 31. He made the comments as he left for Rome in an interview with the Brazilian publication Estado de São Paulo. “Even if celibates are part of our history and of Catholic culture, the church can reflect on the question of celibacy, because it’s not a dogma but a disciplinary norm,” Hummes said. Hummes, a Franciscan, recalled that several Apostles were married, and that the discipline of priestly celibacy in the Western church developed several centuries after the institution of the priesthood itself. “The church is not stationary, but an institution that changes when it has to change,” Hummes said. “The church must first discuss if it is necessary to reconsider the norm of celibacy.” - http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/celibacy
More: http://orthodoxchurchfathers.com/fathers/npnf214/npnf2125.htm
http://www.lightshinesindarkness.com/celibate_priest.htm (evangelical)
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