Posted on 03/08/2011 10:19:18 AM PST by NYer
Protestants say we’re saved by faith. Some Catholics say we’re saved by good works.
What does the Bible say?
This Sunday’s readings* are clear — it’s neither. And it’s both. At the very same time.
First, let’s define our terms. When St. Paul says “works” don’t save us, he is really referring to two things. First of all, he is speaking about the “works” of the Mosaic Law, which include everything from keeping dietary regulations to observing the Ten Commandments. Secondly, he means good actions performed by willpower, without any particular help from God. Paul had thought that rigorous observance of the Law, carrying out its prescribed works, was the key to making a person right with God. But his attempts to observe the law met with frustration (see Romans 7:15-24). The Law made him aware of God’s will but did not enable him to carry it out. “I cannot even understand my own actions. I do not do what I want to do but what I hate … what a wretched man I am!” His attempts at outward observance didn’t change his heart. In fact his heart was so far from God that he cruelly persecuted the followers of Jesus, looking on in approval as St. Stephen was stoned to death.
In Romans 3:23 St. Paul lays it out: We have all sinned seriously. None of us, on our own steam and by our own merits, can ever do enough to earn God’s favor. So God has fixed the problem — he gives us his favor as a free, undeserved gift in response to the sacrifice of Jesus, His son. We become pleasing to him, reconciled to him, not by our own efforts but by the cross of Christ. We receive this gift through the act of faith. So we are saved by faith, not by the works — at least not by the works of the Mosaic Law, done by our own strength.
So the faith camp wins? Not so fast. Let’s take a closer look at what the Bible means by faith.
Many people think that faith is belief. Belief that God exists … that Jesus is the son of God … that Jesus rose from the dead. Intellectual assent to all these truths is of course important, and is an indispensable part of the act of faith. Such belief often leads to religious actions — the hanging of crucifixes in our home, the wearing of medals, the recitation of prayers. These acts of piety are also good.
But Sunday’s Gospel says that mere belief and acts of piety are not enough to save us. Those rejected by God in Matt 7:21-23 clearly “believed” in Jesus; in fact, they prophesied and worked miracles in Jesus’ name. Perhaps they also said novenas in his name. But he said to them “out of my sight, you evil doers.” One of the strongest lines in the gospels provides an explanation: “None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”
Biblical faith is not just belief. It is surrender. It is a complete entrusting of oneself to God in Christ and acceptance of his power, his will, and his plan. If we truly say yes to Him and let his grace into our hearts, we’ll never be the same. His love begins to work through us and change our lives. His Spirit takes up residence within us, giving us the strength to do what we could never do on our own, even to begin to love like He loves.
So true biblical faith is not passive. It is active, dynamic and alive. That’s why St. James says that faith without works is dead (James 2:24-26). Abraham believed that an unknown God was calling him to leave civilization and march into the desert to find a land that this God has promised him. Abraham did not sit and contemplate this call or set up a shrine to this God. He got up and began walking (Genesis 12).
So we are justified by faith, if we mean the authentic biblical faith that causes us to walk in God’s ways. And we are justified by works, if we mean the works of charity that can only flow from faith and grace.
So really, it’s not faith vs. works. It’s faith that works.
**Phillipians 2:12**
That’s true. Here’s another that is quite plain: Romans 6:17
“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you”.
The ‘saving faith without moving a muscle’ sola scriptura crowd fully disobey the Lord in his command to be born again. They claim such commands as Mark 16:16, John 3:3-8, and Acts 2:38 are from God, but making them vague, optional sacraments, pointing to the forgiven thief, who was still under the Law (which Jesus Christ observed and commanded to be followed; as he ordered the healed leper to show himself to the priest, offering the things that Moses commanded).
The thief didn’t need to be born again. The Holy Ghost was not yet given, for Jesus Christ had not yet been glorified. But now, “if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his”. Romans 8:9
Obeying God’s call (commands) is not ‘our own works’. They are His ordinances; and He expects obedience (by faith) to them.
Have you actually read the Bible or do you just memorize the dozen or so verses your preacher gave you?
You are the one who has stated that Jesus is not sufficient, not I.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
Amen!
Actually it was Paul, in the Bible, You have read it correct: Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,. Obviously your issue is with Paul.
You have taken Col 1:24 out of context by thinking this verse refers to individual salvation. Paul is talking about how he must suffer in order for the gospel to be spread around the world - to increase the body - the church.
Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for salvation, but the suffering of missionaries is needed in order to bring the Gospel to unbelievers.
You still haven’t indicated how you can reconcile all of the other Bible passages that clearly indicate the atonement of Christ was complete and sufficient.
I disagree and since you don't have a defining authority supporting you my opinion is just as valid as yours.
Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for salvation, but the suffering of missionaries is needed in order to bring the Gospel to unbelievers.
I'm sorry bringing the gospel to unbelievers is classified as a work and is adding to Christ's sacrifice, you have just contradicted yourself twice in one sentence.
You still haven’t indicated how you can reconcile all of the other Bible passages that clearly indicate the atonement of Christ was complete and sufficient.I have you just refuse to see the truth. Father of five and I have both shown you more than enough evidence.
When Paul was on his second mission trip and talking to the Phillippians and he was talking about “work out your salvation” it was not a reference to “earn ones salvation” but his expression of one’s salvation in spiritual growth and development. Salvation is a gift received once and for all, it is however expressed as an ongoing process where the believer is actively involved. “Fear and trembling” is not doubt and anxiety but in reference to active reverence and spinelessness purpose of response to God’s Grace.
When Paul was preaching to the Gentiles he had all mannor of physical suffering (may had to do with his prison time). What he is talking about here is not a deficiency of the Cross but his own personal physical sufferings that he suffered as he preached the “Good News”. He preached that Christ suffered on the Cross to atone for sin. Paul is preaching he accepts his physical ailments while preaching on behalf of Christ.
What’s your defining authority for your interpretation of Col 1:24? Please cite your reference.
Suffering of missionaries is not a necessary component of individual salvation - you are confusing what is needed in order for a person to be redeemed. This passage clearly is saying that servants of Christ will suffer on this earth because of the evil opposition to the Gospel.
You seem to be suggesting that if a missionary doesn’t face suffering every time he/she presents the Gospel then the listeners will not be able to become believers because the formula for salvation is Christ’s suffering plus the suffering of the missionary.
“I have you just refuse to see the truth. Father of five and I have both shown you more than enough evidence.”
Neither you nor Father of five have offered an interpretation of Hebrews 9:12, which states that Jesus secured our redemption forever. I’m interested in discussing Bible verses and understanding where other viewpoints are coming from.
What does the clear literal meaning of Col. 1:24 say.
Just read it donm’t go through the mental gymnastics
I told you what Col 1:24 says in its proper context - servants of Christ will suffer on this earth in order to futher the Gospel message.
By what authority do you claim your interpretation is any more valid?
What does the clear literal meaning of Hebrews 9:12 say? Why won’t you offer an interpretation for that verse?
Here we come to an important point... what is suffering? I would suggest to you on behalf of the Church that suffering is love in action. What is love without self-giving... what is self-giving without self-denial... what is self-denial without sacrifice? By this definition, we come to know God (Who is Love) by taking up our crosses to follow Jesus... as Jesus admonished us to do.
Therefore, being followers of Christ who are called to lives of suffering, I would submit to you that here are the works called for by the Church. They are not "earning" salvation, they are growing in knowledge of God. Taking the opposite approach is selfishness and failing to grow... and only dead things fail to grow. We are the Body of Christ on Earth through our union with His Bride, the Church. In this, we carry on His earthly mission to call all peoples to Himself. There is much work to be done and a just God Who will reward our efforts. What is lacking in the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross? Our own sacrifice (love) joined with His.
It has been said on here (repeatedly) that Christ's sacrifice is once and for all. Yes... but not all will come to Him. Many are being lost around us every day for a lack of understanding. Just as the prodigal son squandered his inheritance, so too can we squander the grace of God to our own ruin. God stands ready to receive us when we return... but failing to return can cost us our eternal reward. We are not simply sinners forgiven or the fallen raised up... we are sons and daughters of God by the New Covenant through baptism in His Name. As sons and daughters we will be judged more harshly for failing to use His Grace for the accomplishment of His Will than will the poor man who never knew. Baptism is an oath (sacramentum) we take with both blessing and curse (as laid before our forebears through Moses). Blessing in obedience... curse in repudiation.
So many times verses from Romans are bandied about to show that works have no place in our salvation. However, that is a misreading of Romans. Throughout Romans, St Paul is talking about the works of the Law. Clearly, these were not sufficient for our salvation because we still needed Christ on the Cross. Using these verses out of context has been a great source of friction between Catholic and Protestant for too long.
Our salvation is there for us to receive by the once for all sacrifice of Christ... but we must follow where He leads (the Cross) and do as He commanded to truly be one of His. Those are the works of a Christian and they are part of our salvation.
I agree with almost of all what you said except for your last statement, “Those are the works of a Christian and they are part of our salvation.”
A true Christian will bear fruit and will demonstrate love in action as you mentioned. I think we can all agree with that. There are too many people who have claimed to have said the “Sinner’s Prayer” but have never shown any evidence of an inward change of heart. I believe that is what James meant when he said faith without works is dead. If a person claims to be a Christian but their lifestyle doesn’t confirm that then it is likely they don’t really have a true faith.
Therefore, I would still argue that a true belief is what brings salvation to a person and not a combination of works or love in action. The good works are a response to salvation and demonstrate that a person has been truly regenerate as a new creature - born from above. The work of Jesus was sufficient to obtain our salvation; all we have to do is believe. But, if we do believe then all will know it by our actions.
This "failed to regenerate" argument is nonsense and a convenient talking point to avoid the real issues. When a man fails in his Christian walk, we simply say it was obvious that he was never a Christian to begin with... hogwash. God never made us into robots... we still have our free will. That free will also gives us the ability to reject our salvation. Don't forget that Lucifer made such a choice after being the brightest among the angels... and Adam made that choice to precipitate the Fall. Before those horrible choices, these beings were with God.
Before you say Hogwash - go back and read the parable of the soils again. Jesus categorizes different types of people. Some will hear the word and accept it but fall away quickly, some will accept it but will be pulled away by worries of this world, and some will accept it and will perservere in the faith.
Jesus commanded us to be born again or as some translate it to be born from above. That is a supernatural occurance where a person becomes a new creature as the Bible describes it. Jesus also said in the parable of the Good Shepherd that those that are truly His hear His voice and follow Him and no one can snatch them out of His hand.
There are true believers that have been born again who will never truly fall. They may stumble from time to time as all humans do, but a person who has a spritual new birth is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and will never lose their faith.
You completely ignored my post to you. What then do you make of Lucifer and Adam? Were they created by God with a design flaw?
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