Posted on 03/05/2011 11:00:45 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian
A new book by one of the country’s most influential evangelical pastors, challenging traditional Christian views of heaven, hell and eternal damnation, has created an uproar among evangelical leaders
In a book to be published this month, the pastor, Rob Bell, known for his provocative views and appeal among the young, describes as “misguided and toxic” the dogma that “a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better.”
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
If memory serves me correctly, you were the one who were slandering Calvin and Piper. I merely stated that if Bell says there is no hell and certainly no torment, then perhaps he should stop working on his poetry for a while and devote himself to the scriptures. He's a false teacher who doesn't have any scriptural backing in making his assertions.
As far as the eternal destiny of Gandhi or others, you are correct-one can only be certain of their salvation, not others. However, I can safely say that if a person does not accept Christ as their personal Savior before they die, then they will face the fire and torment of hell. I doubt if Bell would agree.
Are you arguing that since sin is our nature we must sin?
So that then we are condemned at birth?
What exactly is Hell? What does the Bible specifically teach about Hell?
That was first espoused by Saint Augustine.
Furthermore, Deuteronomy 30:10-14 clearly states that G-d's nature is in our hearts and that following it is not beyond us:
...if you will hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul; for this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?" Neither is it beyond the sea that you should say: "Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?" The word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
You do not have free will. By your nature, all you can do is sin. The Bible is clear about that as well. “None is righteous, no not ONE”. Regarding Deut.; yet they could NOT keep the commandments and God knew that it would be so. If man could keep the law there would be no reason for the sacrifice of Christ.
What a loving god. To Hell with you for being wrong....even if you chose out of misunderstanding and ignorance. No forgiveness for you...no.....not a snowball’s chance. Rigid, unyielding....unforgiving.....after two-thousand years of supposed absence.....unless, of course you knuckle under and say you believe.
In my experience, it’s mostly atheists who have that opinion.
It makes me wonder if they are really atheists or if they just hate God. which ever they are it seems something is missing.
The Bible plainly talks of hell, but if you ask what hell is, some one will tell you it is the lake of fire.
What is the lake of fire? is it like a lake of water?
no, its a place of punishment.
The point i am trying to make in my simple minded way is that i do not know what hell is no more than i know what heaven is.
The only thing i do know is that i believe that God sent his only begotten son into this world so that those who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Not an everlasting life of this body but an everlasting life of the spirit, and then what? i don,t know.
I like this analogy of the concept of eternal hell (not mine):
Suppose for a moment that a wonderful man—Mr. Right, if you will—offers a marriage proposal to the woman he loves. “Marry me,” he says, “and I will give you a life like you’ve never dreamed of before. You will be loved with the greatest commitment and passion that any woman has ever known. I will give you the finest house with all of the wonderful things you’ve ever wanted, and you will be happy for the rest of your days!”
A major difference between the Old Testament and the New is that the New Testament has Jesus Christ. And as He died for our sins, maybe there is no need for hell?
If he doesn’t say it, then I would like to know what he’s saying or what your definition of hell is.
I just do not believe any thing should be taught as fact unless it can be proven by plain scripture, for instance the sunday sabbath as most churches teach.
But what is hell? The bible is very clear that it exists in eternity. It does not say people suffer for time unending. I think of it more like an event frozen in a piece of lucite, or a photograph. That is, the person may be destroyed, but their destruction does not “happen” for eternity. Rather, it is “final” and preserved for all eternity. They do not survive the second death and they “stay dead”. The rest of us go on to eternal LIFE, which is the opposite of death.
While Hell is referred to as a place of torment, that can mean a lot of things. In my interpretation, “torment” can simply mean the mental anguish of knowing that you could have been with God, but failed due to your own bad behavior.
John’s comment was after Christ paid the price.
Only believers can be saved, its there they have to except it.
But i also can see the other side, can any one really say they chose Christ? or was they chosen by the father.
Who chose who?
John 6:39
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
What a loving god. To Hell with you for being wrong..
I did,nt believe either.
>>That sounds like it was wrote by some one who has read just enough of the Bible to not even know what it is all about, but did not like the little bit they read. <<
Not to me. On the surface maybe. But then, attempting to explain something as vast and complicated (and incomprehensible to man) in such a short analogy can be tricky. Different people take away different meaning based on their own interpretation of a myriad of scripture references coupled with their own life experiences.
I’ve argued with them. They’re completely confused and talk out of both sides of their mouth.
This brings up another point. People can interpret the Bible in a myriad of different ways, but atheists insist that there’s only one way to interpret it (usually the worst possible one).
Not to me. On the surface maybe. But then, attempting to explain something as vast and complicated (and incomprehensible to man) in such a short analogy can be tricky. Different people take away different meaning based on their own interpretation of a myriad of scripture references coupled with their own life experiences.
I was assuming that by the marriageable age that any one would already know they were bound for hell, and i can,t see that it really matters if hell is eternal punishment or if it means something entirely different and i am not convinced what it means because i am aware that much of the scriptures may just be symbols.
At the same time i can see if some one who knows nothing about it hears that they must believe or go into eternal punishment might think it is punishment either way.
And do we really have a choice of belief? believe or die, i am not sure if that would really make me believe, but i don,t think so.
Most unbelievers believe that we make our own hell or heaven here on earth and after that there is nothing, and although they have a point they are missing the most important point.
These people are just as good as any one else and need Christs words of truth because to them there is nothing after this life any way so what does it matter what hell is, and that is also what some believers say hell is, nothing.
So the message would be to them, it don,t have to end, there can be more, if you want more.
And just to be honest i would like for some one to convince me that hell was not such a bad place, GEE, i wander why.
So i was just looking at it from a different point of view, thanks.
Sorry it has taken so long to reply, the last few days this week have been hectic to say the least and yesterday I was burnt out on nearly a 1000 rss feeds to go through while squeezing in reading a book. :)
Although it appears we do agree on the depravity of man I think we might disagree on the extent of it. Total depravity as I’ve understood it means that man is so depraved that he a)doesn’t know he’s depraved for if he did he would know what good is and would then be conscious of a decision to make; either to be good (or at least try to be) or continue to be bad.
And b)Since he doesn’t know he’s depraved then he therefore doesn’t know to ask for help or to be able to change his ways. I just don’t buy that, I don’t know of anyone that doesn’t inherently know good from bad and if they know good from bad then they can know whether they are either, and therefore able once again to either choose to be good or bad.
Now to answer your latest question is simple, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Rev. 20:15.
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