Posted on 02/10/2011 7:57:12 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass
***The versions of it that we possess today, have Maccabees in it. As do the early Christian texts we possess prior to the Vulgate. Pretty strong evidence to me that the only evidence we do have argues in favour of Maccabees.****
Does Maccabees still claim the SPARTANS were decendents of ABRAHAM?
Are you a mainline protestant?
Prayer and talking to God are not distinct activities. Look at Elijah in the cave.
You assume those are necessary. I don’t (with the exception of the immaculate conception, which the bible clearly teaches).
I’ll go over your list.
You said:
Immaculate conception - Spared from original sin at conception.
That is not at all how I interpret it’s importance. For me, immaculate conception is part of the truth that God is the father of Jesus flesh. That is how he can be fully God (His father is God) and fully human (His mother is human)
Sinlessness - Mary as the 2nd Eve.
That is perverse. Eve was not Adam’s mother. Sin did not enter the world through Adam and Eve. It entered the world through one man, Adam. That is what scripture clearly teaches. I have no need for a second eve.
Assumption - Assumed, “wages sin are death, sinlessness, no death”
Like me, Mary has the option to accept Jesus as her personal savior and invoke the grace that the bible so often talks about. And that grace is made possible by Jesus’ perfect life, death and resurrection. Whether or not Mary died in her sins or saved by the blood of Christ is very important to her. It is completely irrelevant to me, regarding my relationship with Christ.
The fullness of Col. 1:10 cannot be a fullness of grace, though, can it?
Do you know what it means to be full of grace? That means your will is perfectly conformed to the will of God and there is no sin in you.
>>Or sisters or daughters. That is the sense in which Mary is our mother.<<
He did not say “robroy’s mother. He said “my” mother.
And to even use that scripture to somehow discuss Mary as perpetual virgin is a form of irony.
And what really creeps me out is that you are suggesting that Mary is somehow my “spiritual mother”. That is sounding frighteningly Mormon.
>>‘Only those who are here on earth are to pray for one another?’<<
It is speaking to the reader. We. Again, it is very plain and straightforward. One would only assume it to mean those who are “asleep” if they have some pet belief that requires it to mean that.
They could be Edomites.
“According to traditional Greek genealogies, the Spartan kings were descendants of Aristodemus, brother of Temenus from whom the Macedonian kings traced their origin. Aristodemus and Temenus were in turn descendants of Belus, King of Arabia, who could be the same as Bela, first King of Edom (Gen. 36:32), a descendant of Esau, grandson of Abraham.”
>>“And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:15-16<<
I think Peter is spot on. :)
Factually incorrect. An author writes. Jerome did NOT write the Bible.
The authors of the individual books, did not write the bible
They wrote the Scriptures, which were God-breathed.
>>Except in her case, the Lotto ticket was bought before she was born.<<
Yes. It was for all of us!
Sigh.
Speaking to the English reader, not the Greek whom is the audience.
The Greek does not use the word for ‘asleep’. They use ‘repose’, which btw is why it is RIP. “Requiescat in pace”
Jerome wrote the Bible.
He was the first to compile it together, old and new in Latin. He was the author of the bible, but not of the individual books.
Authors compile.
I’m not mormon, nor have I had any experience with them. But she is our spiritual mother. I am sorry that you find the doctrine revolting, but it is scriptural.
Nonsense.
To what scripture are you referring?
Very much true. We still use his book for the most part, although it has been updated.
>>The only example we have of someone who had died talking to someone who is alive is at the transfiguration, and Moses wasn’t sleeping.<<
I didn’t want to get deep into this, but I’ll at least brush the issue:
In the transfiguration event, something very “supernatural” was going on. That is why I quoted the scripture describing the event. It is also why I used the word “portal”. We only know how the scripture describes the event. And I believe that it is quite possible that while Jesus was talking with Moses and and Elias that the disciples may not have been able to hear what they were saying because they were not really physically “there” in the sense that the disciples were.
And hew we get into my definition of our “reality” vs eternity: Time is a river that flows in an ocean called eternity.
That is, Moses and Elias were in eternity - outside of time itself - and Jesus was transfigured so as to, while still in his earthly body, pass into this realm, and it was followed by God’s words about Jesus.
This scripture has nothing whatsoever to do with those of us who are not Jesus talking to the dead. Nada. Zip.
This scripture is about God, through a seriously miraculous sign, declaring that Jesus is His son, in whom He is well pleased. I also believe a hint about this time thing is the phrase “before the beginning of the world, I am.”
We are discussing something we cannot fully comprehend. I like to keep the scripture within the context of what it is discussing and limit, somewhat, its application to apparently irrelevant events.
Again, I use the example in “The Life o Brian” where he loses a sandal and his followers interpret it to mean they are to also walk with only one sandal.
This is the first time I've heard a Catholic actually try to claim that it was Jerome who "wrote" the Bible. LOL.
I'm sure I won't hear too many more Catholics go wth that argument since I'm sure the vast majority know that authors write.
>>“I am the final authority regarding what I choose to believe and what I reject as false.”
Finally, a honest answer. If you are the final authority, not God, then you are God and God is something else.<<
Nice try Obi-wan.
I am not the final authority on what IS true. I am the final authority on what I BELIEVE is true. And God gave me that responsibility. It is called free will.
>>Prayer and talking to God are not distinct activities. Look at Elijah in the cave.<<
Jesus was not talking or praying to God. He was talking to Moses and Elias. And he was transfigured. I see the event as “otherworldly” anyway and not to be used to learn how to pray to God any more than the event is to be used as instruction on how to give offerings. The event is much deeper than that and focuses on God proclaiming that Jesus is His Son.
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