Posted on 02/10/2011 7:57:12 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass
>>So does that mean Catholics worship the Pope since you consider him infallible?<<
Actually, the actions of some Catholics would give enough evidence for one to infer they do.
“Because He hath regarded the humility of His handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” Luke 1:48
Neither did I.
>>Do the saints in heaven pray?<<
It sounds like you are going somewhere specific, so I will be very specific in my response. First, an important clarification: I believe that when the bible uses the word “saints” it means all believers. And wherever I see the phrase “prayers of the saints”, as in Revelation, I believe it is referring to our prayers.
The other distinction I make is that based on what I see in scripture, time may not pass in eternity as it does in our “reality”. I see it this way: Time is a river that flows in an ocean called eternity.
Some will argue that Jesus appears in Genisis 32 and wrestles with Jacob.
Perhaps I misunderstood?
“If you compare the offspring of Elizabeth (the reason for her fame) and the offspring of Mary (the reason for her fame), which of these women would you expect to hear the most about.”
Thank you. So veneration of Mary as the Mother of God is appropriate. Well said.
You’re right....I must be divine if I claim an erronous book like the Book of Mormon, or any other fraud, is false.
So if I consider, say, Hebrews a fraud, that means that Hebrews is the equivalent of the Book of Mormon?
I said this: “power.
There is not one single place in the Bible where Jesus or his apostles or anyone else who was a follower of Jesus wrote in the Bible, where we are instructed to communicate with someone who no longer occupies their earthly flesh.”
And you respond with these scriptures (followed by a smarmy remark): “Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36”
Yes, those scriptures are in my bible. :)
Please show me where they are instructed to communicate with someone who no longer occupies their earthly flesh? Or was that not the point of your post. If it wasn’t, I’m going to need more info on where you were going with those three scriptures.
As has been said already, the Pope is only infalliable when he speaks ex cathedra, and only on matters of faith and morals.
No such limitations abound by your appeal that you are infalliable in biblical interpretation by the Holy Spirit.
So you are more powerful than the Pope! No Pope has ever said, “we believe that these books are self-evidently not inspired, ergo we will take them out of the canon.”
>>So when you believe that your own personal interpretation of scripture is inerrant, does this mean that you are God?<<
I think that is not what is going on. Rather, I think the protestants say we are ALL flawed, but the catholics here seem to think that the “church fathers” were not flawed. According to your own definition above, one would infer that this means that catholics do, in fact, deify “Church Fathers”. Actually, that may explain many of their actions regarding the Pope.
Jesus communicated with the dead in the transfiguration. Does that mean he was a necromancer?
Jesus also never said, “don’t abort your children”, or those words thereof in scripture. He never says, “don’t beat your wife”. He never says, “homosexuality is sinful,” Arguments from silence are rather unpersuasive.
Arguments starting from the premise, Jesus never said X, generally all fit this form.
Protestants don't claim that they themselves are infallible. They know that no man is infallible. However, they do often claim that the scriptures are infallible.
If you believe the Pope is infallible because he has the Holy Spirit, I would assume you would believe the same about the scriptures which are "God-breathed".
>>As one of the most Holy (Mother of God)...<<
There it is. To us protestants, we consider (at least I do) God to be holy. We are his creation. Yes, some followers of Christ do more good works and less bad works than others, but that is irrelevant beyond their own personal relationship with Christ. I don’t see people as having varying degrees of holiness as far as it concerns my personal relationship with my Savior.
Like many ancient characters in the bible, Mary is a person we can learn from as events about her actions are recorded as well as Jesus’ references to her. It ends there, as it does with David, Ruth, Judas, Solomon, etc.
Apparently, “Catholics worship the pope” is not a strawman, whereas, “Protestants worship themselves” is a strawman.
All Catholics have said here is that the Pope is infalliable in certain circumstances, and when speaking on faith and morals, through the power of the holy spirit, not himself.
How does an appeal to the authority of the holy spirit qualify as deification in one instance, and not the other?
If scripture is infalliable, and apparently, self-evidently true, why is there disagreement over the canon?
>>But for some, she HAS TO BE ever-virgin or a lot of their deeper beliefs collapse...<<
I asked someone else, “Why this apparently irrational need to believe she died a virgin?” Their explanation was similar to what you say above.
I have no beliefs that depend on her being ever-virgin so I am able to read about her in the Bible with an open mind, avoiding reading too much between the lines.
Thanks. I didn’t know. Sorry about that. I think that, in essence you are saying it was kinda sarcastic. And that makes sense.
>>So you don’t think I can speak to my Dad in Heaven or any of my friends who have passed on?<<
That would be my position.
>>Hardly a day goes by that I don’t ask my Dad or St Jude or Our Blessed Mother for their prayers to help me get through<<
Try Jesus.
Actually, your statement isn’t correct either.
There are 4 major doctrines surrounding Mary. 3 of them hold together, one does not.
Perpetual Virginity.
Assumption of Mary
Sinlessness of Mary
Immaculate conception of Mary.
Her perpetual virginity is the odd man out. It stands by itself. The other three all rely on one another.
Immaculate conception - Spared from original sin at conception.
Sinlessness - Mary as the 2nd Eve.
Assumption - Assumed, “wages sin are death, sinlessness, no death”
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