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To: CynicalBear; Jvette
You can scream all you want but with the Pope snuggling up with the Muslims and the picture of him kissing the Koran they have a point.

I'm well aware of that photo. It's scandalous to many Catholics as well.

The whole religion has a problem with there view on Muslims in my view. This from their own catechism.

# 841
[...]

When we look at that line within the context of the rest of the section, it is brought into perspective. That whole section speaks of those OUTSIDE of the Church and in CCC 846-848 reiterates the Church's teaching of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - Outside the Church, there is no Salvation, which is followed by an explanation of the necessity of missions.

In that context, it begins to make more sense. Let's break it apart now...

# 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,

Of course God's plan of salvation includes them... it includes EVERYONE - whether they accept or reject the plan of God is another matter entirely.

in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;

"in the first place" meaning of this group that acknowledges the Creator - Orthodox and Protestant Christians and the Jews are discussed in the previous paragraphs 836-840. Each of those groups acknowledges more than just the existence of the Creator - The Jews being partakers in the old Covenant, Protestants acknowledging Jesus Christ, and Orthodox acknowledging Jesus Christ as well as the Sacraments (to put it rather simply).

these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Whether they ACTUALLY hold to the Faith of Abraham is another matter entirely. If they really do adore the God of Abraham, then we are speaking of the same God - but whether they do or not is a legitimate issue in my mind (and one that I really think was naively omitted in the Vatican II document Nostra Aetate where this quote comes from).


Context is important.

Incidentally, it is this same "prooftexting" approach (sans context) that led Webster in the original article to draw an incorrect conclusion about the Fathers, which was easily debunked.

186 posted on 02/10/2011 4:13:28 PM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: GCC Catholic

I gotta tell ya GCC, I don’t think you’re going to convince anyone who is not entrenched and looking for some sort of placebo to justify the church they belong to. I do feel for your position but my advice would be to take a really close look at what’s happing today in the RCC.


187 posted on 02/10/2011 6:29:12 PM PST by CynicalBear
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