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To: Turtlepower; CynicalBear
So let me get this straight. The Bible does not explicitly state that Peter alone has this revelation, therefore, one can implicitly deduce they all believe this. I thought it is only the Catholics who see things implicitly revealed in Scripture. Hmmmmm.

For the record, I was responding to CynicalBear's assertion that Peter SPOKE for all of them when he made this declaration of faith. I never said that only Peter had the revelation or belief. But, Peter confirmed the belief for all of them when He spoke, as the pope does when he speaks ex cathedra for the beliefs of the Church.

Also, for the record, what I wrote is the Church's interpretation of that Scripture.

As for your remarks regarding Paul. I do not reject your assertion that Paul challenged Peter, and considered himself an equal. Nor do I reject that James reached the decision at the first conference regarding how the Gentiles were to be received into their ranks.

But, let's look back a little here before we so cavalierly toss out that there is no Biblical basis for Peter as the first pope.

Saul is converted and brought to the disciples in Jerusalem, but they were afraid, and rightfully so considering his past persecution of them.

But, read ACTS, it says that he spoke boldly of Jesus and then the believers brought him down to Caesarea. What happens next in Caesarea?

The Holy Spirit leads Cornelius to call Peter to Caesarea. Now Cornelius was a Gentile who was greatly respected by the Jews for his devotion to God. Before the men sent by Cornelius come to Peter, Peter has a vision, given to him by God and the vision confuses Peter and he is not sure what to make of it.

In the midst of this comes the men sent by Cornelius to get Peter. The Spirit tells Peter to go with these men for God is the one who sent them. And so Peter goes and realizes that the vision was meant to show him that the Lord is the Lord of the Gentiles as well as the Jews. What does he say to the Gentiles?

Acts 10:28-"You yourselves know that it is unlawful for a Jew to associate with or to visit a Gentile; but God has shown me that I should not call anyone profane or unclean."

Cornelius tells him he was praying when a man appeared to him and told him to send for Peter and now that Peter has come, Cornelius and his household are assembled to hear what God has commanded Peter to say to them.

What follows is Peter preaching to them about Jesus and then the Holy Spirit comes upon the Gentiles, just as it had on the Jews and Peter orders them to be baptized.

Then Peter goes to Jerusalem and reports to the others about the vision and the meeting with Cornelius and his(Peter's interpretation) that the vision meant that the Gentiles were also to be given the gift of belief in Jesus and redemption. It is from this testimony by Peter that the Apostles and other disciples say, "Then God has given even to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life."

Now on to the conference at Jerusalem when the disciples contemplate whether or not the Gentiles would have to undergo circumcision. Peter stands up and says to them this,

Acts 15:7-11 "My brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that I should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers. And god, who knows the human heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us and in cleansing their hearts by faith he has made no distinction between them and us. Now therefore why are you putting god to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

After this, there is discussion and then James pronounces his decision.

It couldn't be more clear that Peter lays out what God, through the Holy Spirit has led him to believe and proclaim and that James has only agreed and affirmed it.

Note that though Paul was in Caesarea before Peter, it was Peter whom the Lord told Cornelius to send for and from whom they first received the good news and believed and were baptized. Now I must note that Scripture does not explicitly say they were baptized, but does that mean they were not?

And in Jerusalem, Peter has made the case, Paul and Barnabas support Peter with their testimonies regarding the signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. and James' "decision" is to agree with Peter.

Now I firmly believe that we are all equal in God's eyes. Equally loved and equally called to believe and be saved. But, that equality does not qualify me to authoritatively assert what any Christian is to believe.

157 posted on 02/09/2011 1:05:32 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette

If Peter was the final authority as Catholics claimed then why did James even feel the need to make the final decision. I agree that Peter was the one to make the case for inclusion of Gentiles, since he had the personal experience. But, if he was the first pope, then why didn’t he just say this is how it’s going to be - I’m the pope and I decide to let the gentiles in. Instead, it was a conference and Peter was just making an appeal and was obviously looking for agreement from others.

It appears that you are trying to dismiss James’ involvement and authority. You stated that he merely agreed with what Peter presented. You’ve missed the whole point, that it was James who put the issue to rest - not Peter. James is the one who concluded the matter, which is a definate act of authority.

Peter certainly didn’t act like he had authority over James, and Paul certainly didn’t think that Peter had authority over him. So why do Catholics insist that Peter was the first pope who had authority over the other apostles?


164 posted on 02/09/2011 1:50:24 PM PST by Turtlepower
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