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To: pgyanke; RnMomof7
Peter is not the Rock or Pope

In Matthew 16 Jesus is talking to all of the Apostles. They were all asked the question of who they thought He was. Though Peter was the one who answered for the group Jesus was talking to them all. When Peter said that they believed He was “Christ the Son of the Living God” Jesus replied and said that it was not flesh and blood that had revealed that to Peter but that it was “my Father which is in heaven”. He then says to Peter “and thou art Peter”, acknowledging that He knew who Peter was just as Peter knew who Jesus was. Then Jesus, referring back to “my Father which is in heaven”, says, “upon this rock I will build my church”.

In other places in scripture Jesus is referred to as the “corner stone”, but the rock that the church is build on is the Father.

If you want reference to God as the Rock here are some verses.

Deut. 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

2 Sam. 22:2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; 3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

Rom. 9:33, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."

1 Cor. 3:11, "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ,"

1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."

1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

109 posted on 02/08/2011 7:28:09 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
You were doing great... until you wrote this:

He then says to Peter “and thou art Peter”, acknowledging that He knew who Peter was just as Peter knew who Jesus was. Then Jesus, referring back to “my Father which is in heaven”, says, “upon this rock I will build my church”.

There are a number of problems with this... and it all goes back to the problem of the article in question... Sola Scriptura. Your interpretation is entirely at odds with everyone else's who has challenged me on this thread... and, frankly, at odds with about every theologian I can think of--Catholic or Protestant.

The first reference to "rock" is the first time Christ has called him "Peter" or "rock". Christ isn't simply acknowledging him (Like... Hey, Joe!), He is calling Peter to a higher purpose.

The second reference to "rock" isn't referencing our Heavenly Father. You could make the case that it's referencing Christ Himself... but that isn't supported by the context either. Most who oppose the Catholic view see it as strictly Peter's confession of faith and Peter receives no higher calling here.

Here's the problem with the Protestant interpretation... Jesus spoke Aramaic with His Apostles, not Greek. In the Aramaic, "rock" is kipha and there is no other word for it. So, the original text actually calls Peter "kipha" and Christ follows it that upon this "kipha" He will build His Church.

111 posted on 02/08/2011 7:39:48 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: CynicalBear
You were doing great... until you wrote this:

He then says to Peter “and thou art Peter”, acknowledging that He knew who Peter was just as Peter knew who Jesus was. Then Jesus, referring back to “my Father which is in heaven”, says, “upon this rock I will build my church”.

There are a number of problems with this... and it all goes back to the problem of the article in question... Sola Scriptura. Your interpretation is entirely at odds with everyone else's who has challenged me on this thread... and, frankly, at odds with about every theologian I can think of--Catholic or Protestant.

The first reference to "rock" is the first time Christ has called him "Peter" or "rock". Christ isn't simply acknowledging him (Like... Hey, Joe!), He is calling Peter to a higher purpose.

The second reference to "rock" isn't referencing our Heavenly Father. You could make the case that it's referencing Christ Himself... but that isn't supported by the context either. Most who oppose the Catholic view see it as strictly Peter's confession of faith and Peter receives no higher calling here.

Here's the problem with the Protestant interpretation... Jesus spoke Aramaic with His Apostles, not Greek. In the Aramaic, "rock" is kipha and there is no other word for it. So, the original text actually calls Peter "kipha" and Christ follows it that upon this "kipha" He will build His Church. The Catholic view is that the "rock" is both Peter in the physical sense and his confession in the metaphysical sense.

112 posted on 02/08/2011 7:41:03 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: CynicalBear

Sorry for the double post. I thought I stopped it in time and added a little on the second one...


113 posted on 02/08/2011 7:42:59 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: CynicalBear
In Matthew 16 Jesus is talking to all of the Apostles. They were all asked the question of who they thought He was. Though Peter was the one who answered for the group Jesus was talking to them all. When Peter said that they believed He was “Christ the Son of the Living God” Jesus replied and said that it was not flesh and blood that had revealed that to Peter but that it was “my Father which is in heaven”.

Ah, CynicalBear, you have just inadvertently made the case for Peter as the first pope. Jesus is speaking to ALL OF THEM, and it is Peter that responds for ALL OF THEM. Then Jesus affirms that the TRUTH that Peter has just spoken for ALL OF THEM, has been revealed by the Father, revealed to PETER and not to ALL OF THEM.

You have admitted that Peter spoke for all of them, that Jesus affirmed what he said as truth, and revealed to those for whom Peter spoke, that it was the Father that revealed it to him.

147 posted on 02/09/2011 10:54:16 AM PST by Jvette
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