STF-””Try explaining Saint Genesius of Arles who was declared baptized by Martyrdom””
Ver-The martyrology is in error, he had received the sacrament of baptism.
Prove it? Your wrong! There are others as well.
Ver-”Anyhow, I answered your questions about baptism of blood, WHICH DOES NOT AFFECT numerically speaking practically ANYONE which you liberals are saved outside of the Church”
Is this going to be the new mission of the Feeney crowd now- to start a crusade to remove Saint Genesius of Arles and others from Sainthood ?
Also, I never said there is no Salvation outside the Church,dear brother and I adhere to the defined teachings of the Church on these matters which is in the DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION LUMEN GENTIUM regarding the invincibly ignorant who follow the law of love,thus not making me liberal at all,but one who is obedient to the Church,unlike Feeney. We have been through this already.
Salvation comes through the Church through a mystical connection through God’s grace
From Lumen Gentium and Dominius Lesus(AGAIN!)
Lumen Gentium-DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.
And from Dominus Iesus written by Cardinal Ratzinger before he became Pope Benedict XVI...
The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80
For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82
Feeney’s antisemitism written in his own articles at the below link ought to trouble you regarding him,ver
http://fatherfeeney.org/point/index.html
"Why God would allow these "ambiguities" to occur in Vatican II. (and other magisterial documents)?
Considering all that I have said thus far, especially concerning the ulterior motives of the liberal prelates and their virtual hijacking of Vatican II, I think Scripture has an answer as to why God would allow these "ambiguities" to occur. In short, there is an interesting working principle in Scripture. As a punishment for your sin, God will allow you to pursue, and be condemned by, what you sinfully desire. This is what I believe happened at Vatican II. The progressivist bishops and theologians sought for a way to push their heterodox ideas into the Church, so God allowed them to do so, as a witness and judgment against them. He would allow the Council to have its "ambiguities" so that those who would interpret them contrary to nineteen centuries of established Catholic dogma, would lead themselves into sin, and ultimately into God's judgment. Unfortunately, as is always the case, the sheep suffer for what the shepherds do wrong, and as a result, we have all been wandering in the spiritual desert of liberal theology for the past 40 years. (Article from Catholic Family News, Feb 2003, by Robert Sungenis)(1)
re:Salvation comes through the Church through a mystical connection through God’s grace
So what? That does not say anything new. No one can come to the Faith without God's grace.
re: From Lumen Gentium and Dominius Iesus:
Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.
Nowhere does this say that they will be saved if they die outside of the bosom of the Church. All this is saying is that God will provide the grace to get them to enter the Church before they die. Does it say that they don't need to be baptized? Is this as precise as the 9 ex-cathdra decrees/ Is this even clear? Moreover, there may have never existed a person "without blame on their part", thus this whole decree is just a snare that "He would allow the Council to have its "ambiguities" so that those who would interpret them contrary to nineteen centuries of established Catholic dogma, would lead themselves into sin, and ultimately into God's judgment.
re: And from Dominus Iesus written by Cardinal Ratzinger
The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82
Again, this dose not say anything about those outside of the Church being saved where they are. says: "For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which". Is accesible, does not mean that they can be saved outside of the Church. God's Grace is accesible to every human creature.
Did you know that outside of the Church there is no sanctifying Grace? It's dogma too. But, let's not complicate this thread with that discussion.
Catholic Doctrine on Grace
Outside of the Catholic Church there is no sanctifying grace:
Although, predisposing or prevenient graces are given to anyone of those outside the Catholic Church, so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Catholic Church, for without these graces no one would ever convert. However, outside the Catholic Church no sinner can attain sanctifying grace, the state justice wherein one can receive in their soul the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They can't receive sanctifying grace because they are in a perpetual state of mortal sin, since there is no way for them to receive remission of sin outside of the Church.
DOGMA:
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…” Feeney’s antisemitism written in his own articles at the below
re:Salvation comes through the Church through a mystical connection through God’s grace
So what? That does not say anything new. No one can come to the Faith without God's grace.
re: From Lumen Gentium and Dominius Iesus:
Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.
Nowhere does this say that they will be saved if they die outside of the bosom of the Church. All this is saying is that God will provide the grace to get them to enter the Church before they die. Does it say that they don't need to be baptized? Is this as precise as the 9 ex-cathdra decrees/ Is this even clear? Moreover, there may have never existed a person "without blame on their part", thus this whole decree is just a snare that "He would allow the Council to have its "ambiguities" so that those who would interpret them contrary to nineteen centuries of established Catholic dogma, would lead themselves into sin, and ultimately into God's judgment.
re: And from Dominus Iesus written by Cardinal Ratzinger
The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82
Again, this dose not say anything about those outside of the Church being saved where they are. says: "For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which". Is accesible, does not mean that they can be saved outside of the Church. God's Grace is accesible to every human creature.
Did you know that outside of the Church there is no sanctifying Grace? It's dogma too. But, let's not complicate this thread with that discussion.
Catholic Doctrine on Grace
Outside of the Catholic Church there is no sanctifying grace:
Although, predisposing or prevenient graces are given to anyone of those outside the Catholic Church, so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Catholic Church, for without these graces no one would ever convert. However, outside the Catholic Church no sinner can attain sanctifying grace, the state justice wherein one can receive in their soul the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They can't receive sanctifying grace because they are in a perpetual state of mortal sin, since there is no way for them to receive remission of sin outside of the Church.
DOGMA:
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…” Feeney’s antisemitism written in his own articles at the below