Posted on 02/05/2011 11:07:42 AM PST by Gamecock
I agree with you…and your statements about the reformation and many of the Evangelical non-denom churches being transitory. I am a restorationist, I believe it is God’s desire that true Christians be brought back to the original Apostolic faith. No, not back to a Judaized under-the-law Christianity, as the Hebrew Roots and Noahide people promote, but back to the Jerusalem council of Acts 15, and the form of Christianity that is reflected in almost every line that the apostle Paul wrote.
I think we are seeing a lot of that in the mission field in repressive countries. I think in the end Bible literacy will take a good portion of serious Bible believing Christians in this direction.
I believe we must go back beyond Constantine where Christianity went terribly wrong trusting in the arm of flesh (the state), where Christianity was compromised, the RCC being the eventual result of it. Back to the Jerusalem council, Acts 15, and the Christianity of the book of Acts.
IOW, Paul was the first Reformer?
I always look at the 300's because this is when Christians first used physical force on other Christians to impose their will.
I've seen the 7 churches expressed as different eras before. It's an interesting thought. I'm more inclined to believe they exist concurrently.
LOL I should have used a quantifier indicating a larger problem perhaps?
2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?(KJV)
sadly, we are witnessing the “falling away” foretold by Paul. the two witnesses are dead, and the lovers of evil rejoice. have at it.
just keeping it real. The Baptists teach many false doctrines, but at least they understand the Trinity.
This understanding became widespread because the Reformation transformed Christianity. Bible literacy became more common and the willingness to scrutinize clergy on the basis of what the Bible said grew. It's not that these things didn't exist before. They did on a smaller scale, but the Reformation changed the dynamic because the power of the state was used to fight those that opposed it.
What we've been talking about is this Reformation may have been a needed transition, but it was not the end.
To a degree, it is a matter of focus - There is no doubt that Pentecostals have a different focus (or perhaps approach is a better word) than your average Presbyterian - That is a good thing, in my mind, as both roads lead to New Jerusalem... And to the King.
Qx: Wellllllllllll . . . PRAISE THE LORD IN TONUGES and pass the ammunition! LOL.
The early Christian Churches were very independent and their services were varied.
Qx: ABSOLUTELY INDEED. That is one of the RC rubberized history revisionist issues that is most outrageous.
I expect that process to result in a worship of YHWH which is more Biblical, and more detested by the worldly, as the years roll on (what few there are left). Many sacred cows need to be gored.
Qx: Many sacred cows INDEED NEED to be gored. That's one reason I keep my Sword well sharpened. LOL.
If we look at the House Church movement in repressive countries you find a very humble, reflective non ritualistic service. It is a gathering of believers with no elevated clergy. In the end this may be how we are forced to worship if evil controls the planet.
Qx: ABSOLUTELY INDEED. I loved those meetings. God seemed so much more readily and impactfully to manifest His Presence in them.
And to what degree is discernment leveraged by Bible teaching? IOW, Do traditions of men prevent or diminish discernment? No doubt... But by what degree?
Qx: I'd say, from my observations and experience, that !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! poison, sabotage, pollute, tarnish, misdirect discernment rather wholesale--often to the point of not only being useless but quite destructive and devilish.
One of the great things the came from the Reformation was Bible literacy. In the prior 1,200 years Christians had become enslaved to pagan worship dressed up as Christianity in large part under the authority of "tradition". So I believe the historical record shows where "tradition" leads, to a Dark Age.
Qx: imho, OF COURSE. !!!!TRADITION!!!! EXALTS MAN and man's silly notions over God just as the RC's exalt with their !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! Mary over God while claming they do not. Their actions speak many decibels louder than their words . . . and their words on the topic are bad enough.
I fully expect the Roman church to be at the head of that profane ecumenical community - if it can survive Islam.
Qx: I used to doubt that and be quite skeptical about it.
Reading the globalist encyclical . . . pondering the Fatima UFO incident . . . reflecting on sooooo much of the Maryolatry and associated devilishness . . . I've begun to think I was wrong to be so skeptical about that.
Throw in these sorts of records and presentations:
Dr Mike Heiser on the Nephilium--coupled with the official Vatican pronouncements about the ET's . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPtz-3mIyTw
Dr Walter Veith's presentation on the history of secret societies, Jesuits, Illuminati and the Popes' connections therewith . . .
http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/123/211-232K/
Singapore's Lee Kwan Yew's statement about "WE CAN unify all religions but Islam"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2669147/posts
as well as other inputs . . . have resulted in me concluding that it is highly likely that the Vatican will be center stage in facilitating the Anti-Christ's rise to power and the operation of his government.
I'm still NOT convinced that the Pope will turn out to BE the Anti-Christ. Nor would it rock my theology, if he did. I would expect instead that he would be more of an assistant for managing the remaining masses via religion.
I don't doubt that it will survive. At heart it is a political entity and they have made clear that they believe muslims worship the same god as them. Their ultimate goal is control of Jerusalem and the muslims might be able to give it to them.
Qx: An interesting idea. I don't think so. The Muslims are friendly only in expediency. And, I believe that the globalist oligarchy will use the Muslims for all their blood thirsty murderousness to help reduce the global population--and then exterminate all the Muslims. Satan's house has long fought internally with itself. The oligarchy knows that the Muslims could never be placated as only "also rans."
Interesting points. Thanks.
Which baptism places you into the one faith and into the one Lord?
I'm also curious as to the 'many false doctrines' that you say Baptists teach. You don't have to name all of them, just a few would be informative.
In a word.
yes....
One thing I've learned is that Catholics tend to be very humor and sarcasm challenged.
“IOW, Paul was the first Reformer?”
Paul played a major role in the early church conflict about keeping the Mosaic law. His epistles clearly reflect where he stood. I’ve never heard him being called a “reformer” before. Would you mind explaining what you mean?
“I’ve seen the 7 churches expressed as different eras before. It’s an interesting thought. I’m more inclined to believe they exist concurrently.”
It doesn’t have to be either/or, it can be both concurrent and prophetic. The near-far phenomena is quite common in prophecy. Meaning the messages to the seven churches addressed then-existing conditions in each individual church, while at the same time a prophetic projection of church history.
Rev. 1:3 refers to the entire book as prophecy, that would include the seven churches.
I don’t think English has a
SUFFICIENTLY LARGE
qualifier that would have fit.
LOL.
One thing I’ve learned is that Catholics tend to be very humor and sarcasm challenged.
INDEED.
I don’t think “humor” is even in the Vatican DAFFYNITIONARY.
And sarcasm must have only the worst daffynitions attached to it.
The AntiChrist will be destroyed at the literal Armageddon.
The puzzle places are moving into place for the final acts in the play.
Rome is considered the city of seven hills. Revelation 17:7-107But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. 8The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. 9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.
“Prayer of Pope Pius XII
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
I would call that worship and praying directly to Mary.”
I would call it demonic and Christ dis-honoring.
Catholics have more trouble with the THREE persons in ONE God than Protestants do ... Catholics like the words but then deny them each full personhood.. go figure
I especially like this part. The RCC cannot even bring herself to recognize that Jesus Christ had actual half brothers from Mary and Joseph. And yet...
But why let the truth intrude. It would only confuse the other obvious points of blasphemy. From "Enraptured" to "Amen".
Guess.
I suspect that its both. It represents both the general church age and the mix of churches at any particular time in the church age, with one type being the predominant one through out the church age.
So, sasportas' timeline is the general over all one, but during each era you can find representative churches of each of the seven listed existing as well.
If that makes any sense.
Or one of the many other sites that quote Luther :)
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