Gamecock:
Actually, the letter to the Phillipans [cf 2:5-11] points to the humility of God that he would send his Son into the human condition and become incarnate of the Virgin Mary and then suffer on the Cross.
So the reality is not that without Mary there would be no savior, the reality is that it was through Mary that the Word became incarnate and dwelt among us [cf. John 1:14].
So it was the Divine Will of God that Christ would become incarnate of Mary so that he could experience the entire Human condition and be one totally like us, save sin [cf. Hebrews 14:15].
So Christ being Incarnate of the Virgin Mary means the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity was incarnate of Mary. Thus, the the Son of God and the Son of Mary are one and the same Person - Christ is God, and Mary is the Mother of God [as allude to in the Gospel of Luke 1:43 and dogmatically defined at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD].
Since Mary’s role was unique in Salvation History, both teh Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church recogniz Mary as the greatest saint of the New Testament because no one was so intimately associated with the Incarnation as she. She voluntarily conceived, gave birth to, and nourished Christ. Our Lord derived from her the very flesh and blood of His body.
It was that flesh and blood that suffered, died and was buried, the flesh that Christ got from Mary his Mother.
God is not limited in His choice of women.
I’m sure that IF Mary had said *No*, that He could have raised up someone else who who have said *yes*.
This debate of whether Mary could have said *No* and what would have happened falls into the angels dancing on the head of a pin.
The efforts Catholics go through to exalt Mary to a position that justifies their adoration and veneration of her could better be put into exalting Jesus.
Attention to Mary is attention not given to God.
Prayer to Mary is prayer not given to God.
Anything to Mary is anything not given to God.
There is no justification for the attention the Catholic church heaps on her. It takes the focus off God and puts it on man.
No one is denying that the Savior was to be born of woman. That He was to be fully human and fully divine .
The question was to Marshmallow that said without Mary there would have been no Savior, that salvation began with her yes
The discussion flowed from my assertion that Jesus was predestined.. that was denied in spite of biblical evidence to that fact.. so I asked if salvation depended on Mary was she predestined??
What is your opinion on this?