so theoretically, anything is possible...sort of.
Posted on 01/23/2011 11:30:29 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
Justification and Sanctification are two extremely important concepts to understand, even though they are not everyday words. But they are more than concepts; justification and sanctification help us make sense out of the world, ourselves, and God. In other words, they are not simply "up there" but very relevant to "down here." These concepts are practical.
Justification is the teaching that God declares us right in Jesus Christ. Paul writes in Romans, "For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, though the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (3:22b-24). God declares us right in his sight through the blood of Jesus Christ.
Now, while this might not seem like much, pay attention to what Paul wrote about who we were before Christ: we were sinners who fell short of the glory of God. Paul tells us elsewhere that we were children of wrath, under God's wrath, apart from Christ. By his grace, however, he gave us the gift of Christ whose blood satisfies and atones for the wrath of God, making us children of God. Therefore, we were children of wrath, but now in Christ we are children of God. We were declared sinful and destined for hell, but in Christ we are declared right and destined for glory.
Justification is not our work at all. It is a gift, as Paul writes in Romans 3. It is a perfect gift. Nothing can be added to our justification, for Christ is perfect. For those in Christ, when God the Father looks at you, he sees his perfect Son.
Think of justification as a legal status. Once we were children of parents who didn't want us, but now God has adopted us into his family. We are legally his. There is nothing that can be added to declare us more his. It is done. It is finished.
Sanctification is the teaching that God makes us right through the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul again writes in Romans, "I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." God makes us right -- sanctifies -- through the Holy Spirit.
What's the difference between justification and sanctification? Think about that same analogy of adoption. Legally, an adopted child is a member of that new family. It is a done, perfect deal in the eyes of the law. Nothing can be added to declare it more perfect. However, the child now experiences the new family. He grows to know what it means to be a member of this new family. He changes and becomes more like that new family. This is sanctification.
Whereas justification is a perfect deal done once on the cross by Christ, sanctification is an imperfect process done by the Spirit and us. Whereas justification is a legal status, sanctification is an experience. Whereas justification was done apart from us, sanctification is done in us to make us more like a member of that family.
How does this matter to our daily lives? Well, we easily confuse these two, basing our righteousness on our sanctification, by how good we've been, rather than on the perfect righteousness of Christ. We become either anxious or self-righteous, then. We don't see ourselves as worthy because we aren't focusing on the worthiness of Christ. Or, we think we don't need to do anything to grow because Christ has done it all, forgetting that sanctification is a work between the Spirit and us.
Know the difference between these two concepts. Remind yourself of these every day. One grants us a peace and joy that the world cannot offer. The other gives us purpose in battling indwelling sin and putting on Christ.
The only apostle whose death is recorded in the bible is James. The rest are stories based on tradition, though most are accepted to have been martyrs.
There are two people in the Old Testament who were taken up to heaven without death: Elijah and Enoch
Oh yeah, and I wear mine where people can see it.
That tail was my commentary on your prophet – you know, the one you claimed to sustain.
Got your people mixed up du - its your prophets making water and you believe it to be rain. But then again you continue to fail epically to show that I've taken things out of context. But even modern teaching du, tsk, tsk, tsk. . . . as if anyone is going to read after your ridiculously huge post.
The same can be said for your standard diatribe here du.
Resurrection is not Salvation, nor is it Justification, nor is it Eternal Life.
Salvation – lol du wasting a lot of ‘milk’ here aren’t you. It is common knowledge that mormons separates their form of ‘salvation’ into two categories – from physical death and spiritual death. Are you denying that Jesus’ death according to mormonism grants universal resurrection of the body to eternal life? AFA mormon ‘eternal life’, please, are you now espousing nihilism of JWs for your doctrine?
So, just curious, what do you believe he was doing in the Garden where he needed an angel to sustain him and sweat great drops of blood? Inquiring minds want to know.
The bible tells us he was praying and had sweat LIKE blood. To make the garden the place of atonement shows great ignorance on the part of mormonism towards the sacrificial practices laid out in the OT (but then that ignorance doesn’t surprise any here).
So, Salvation is Free to you? You believe that Jesus just suffered for you and expects nothing, no change, no obedience to his law? Where is that in the Bible? Where in the Bible does it say that You have no responsibility to Jesus after he atones for your sins?
LOL such big words from you du. Example was given by Jesus himself via the prodigal son parable. The father in the story required no pre-qualifying works of righteousness before accepting him back, required not subsequent works upon his return. For the rest, scripture states that:
(1) God saves us by grace alone, not by works (Rom. 11:6). We cannot save ourselves.
(2) God saves us in Christ alone: he is the only Savior (John 14:6; Acts 4:12).
(3) God saves us through faith alone(Rom. 3:26-28; Eph. 2:8-9). Faith does not mean mere lip profession or mental agreement with the facts of the gospel. Anyone whose so-called “faith” is just mental or verbal agreement is still lost. Rather, true faith means trusting in God, a humble attitude of dependence on God’s grace and mercy bestowed on us in Christ.
(4) God saves us resulting in good works. Immediately following Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul adds, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10 KJV). Grace does not kick in to save us after we do all the good works we can, as Mormonism teaches. Rather, our good works kick in after God’s grace saves us. Good works are the fruit, not the root, of salvation.
Jesus loves you, but don't make him out to be an idiot. He Saves, and Commands. those who seek to "steal salvation" by claiming the atonement and then reject the commandments will have a rude awakening. (Revelations 3:15-22
Once again you display ignorance of the function of Grace within true Christianity du. When one becomes saved through Christ, Jesus creates a new person. One seeking to ‘steal’ salvation cannot claim the atonement as you say, because they fail to make Jesus the Lord of their life. Therefore you’ve constructed a strawman argument based upon this ignorance. AFA Rev 3:15-22, please note that Jesus still loves them in the rebuke and chastisement.
So don't be lukewarm, Do something! Repent! bear chastisement with Gladness! Overcome the world with and through Jesus! Then you will be invited to sit down in Jesus' throne (become a god) Even as Jesus inherited his father's throne (became a god, and more importantly, our God)(Again, a truth Lost when the Trinity was adopted by Orthodox Christianity!)
LOL, trying to get a good preach on eh? There is nothing, not a single work that we can do to add to our salvation du. You will never become a god through mormonism, Jesus was already eternal God (ie he didn’t ‘become’ a god – read John 1:1 again), and mormonism claims heavenly father to be your ‘god’ (AoF #1) - (now that could be Adam, unless you declare Young to be a false prophet)
Matthew 7:21-29
Yep, those people were doing lots of THINGS now weren’t they du. They weren’t “lukewarm” they were “do(ing) something” – according to your directive. Many wonderful works – wow mormons would love these people. Prophesying - what’s the latest and greatest prophecy of monson du? How many ‘prophecies’ of smith were fulfilled?
Build upon the rock of faith, yes even the faith for which Peter was named, the rock of faith. that rock requires action on the part of the believer! inaction means there is no faith.
Once again du, still ignorant of the scriptures. Again, the salvation is already provided for – by faith, and nothing can add to that salvation. Did you not pay attention to the verses preceding it? All that Jesus said before (vv. 1-5) and following those verses should discourage us from doing this. False prophets eventually give evidence that they are not faithful prophets. However, it is impossible for onlookers to determine the salvation of professing believers (vv. 21-23) and those who simply receive the gospel without making any public response to it (vv. 24-27).
When you look in the mirror, are your eyes brown? A visitation by a loved one is not bringing the body into the Temple for some "black magic", prove me wrong... you can't
Scripture clearly states that such a visitation is demonic in origin. However, you clearly don’t understand the meaning of “necromancy” do you du (dictionary not working?), it has nothing to do with bringing a dead body into the temple, but everything to do with actively seeking to consult the “spirits” of the dead – a practice forbidden by the bible.
No, I said the Atonement set the standard of belief in proxy work which it does. Another burning straw man Godzilla?
No, because Jesus’ work was unique as he is unique. The nt contains no teaching or evidence that the apostles or other believers doing any such ‘proxy’ work – your only source is the false prophet smith.
. . . “Mormonism Unveiled”. . . "Spirit World Manifestations Accounts of Divine Aid in Genealogical and Temple and Other Assistance to Latter-day Saints", . . . . P Parley Pratt taught (Jod):
DU: Oh please, "Mormonism Unveiled", do you have anything reputable, or even believable? Just for the record, visitations by the dead prophets of days gone by like Elijah are not necromancy by any stretch of the imagination. Necromancy is black magic, which has never been practiced in any temple. IF your standards for us are applied to the apostles of the Bible, they were all involved in necromancy when Jesus returned and supped with them. Any answer from Jesus to a prayer is necromancy by your definition.
LOL, Pratt spent a whole message in JoD describing the practice in mormon temples – your history. Yes, it is black magic, as too was the magic associated with smith’s peep stone which he used for ‘translating’ the bom, as too was the Jupiter Talisman he wore.
Lurkers will note that there are two forms of necromancy - evoking the spirit of a dead man through ritual only, and working directly with the corpse to enliven it to speak. Smith was well versed in the first. There are numerous incidents recorded in mormon history of such events in temples. Are you denying all history?
BTW, for the record, Jesus as God can appear on his own to whomever, part of the privilege of being God du, and never was Jesus “summoned” as done in necromancy – unless you condone the practice.
It's just more of the same, smear, smear, prevaricate, lie and misquote.
Nope, just plain old mormon history. Remember, it was Pratt who said that mormon temples, were specifically built “so that living may communicate with the dead”, and that the temple-going mormons are to be “acting as mediums through which the living can hear from the dead” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2:44-46). The JoD is a mormon friendly source, Pratt was a preeminent apostle – are you saying that he was presenting a FALSE teaching du?
here is a video titled TRUTH ABOUT THE MORMONS!!! Mormonism unveiled... more truth is taught in this short video than in all your posts Godzilla.
Oh, does it cover Pratt’s teaching on JoD – didn’t think so. How about the mormon Joseph Heinerman (Published 1974) - didn’t think so either. Sorry du, epic fail of an apologetic ‘tube.
Yes, I'm sure you did. you choose words for shock effect, not for truth.
As evidenced above, your attempted mindreading fails again. So your s is a triple head fake? Justification is not sanctification, nor is it Eternal life... Wait, I said that before.
No, you said both required works by you to accomplish. As pointed out, the article states otherwise.
So, Godzilla, how do you reconcile being commanded to do works and the Bible saying you will be judged by your works with the "no works needed" philosophy you espouse here? No I am not going to go drag lexicons in here, the scriptures say what they say, and I quoted you scriptures and all you want to do is look away from them. If you don't want to follow the whole Bible, it's your funeral, literally.
LOL, you are one to talk about the ‘whole Bible’ eh du – since you can’t tell me which part have been ‘translated correctly’. Alas, I’ve explained the passage in Revelations to you numerous times and won’t waste my time embarrassing your exegeses skills again. I’ve looked into them du, and not away from them as mormons do. As stated earlier and in the thread article, our salvation is complete in Jesus, our works cannot provide or add anything to it. Our works are an outgrowth of that salvation (not the root) done out of love, not obligation, not ‘paying off a debt’ as mormons would have it. The judgment of ‘works’ takes many contextual forms in the bible, but you are too closed minded to go into detail at this point. Suffice it to say, my ‘judgement’ occurs at the first part of the chapter – not the last. And that judgment is based upon whether I’ve accepted Jesus as my Savior by faith or not.
So, I say they are what we believe, and they were taught in my ward with the bishop in attendance and you are saying they don't represent our doctrines in the least... well all I can say is you either Don't know our doctrine or you are a first class liar.
Let me see, a simple ‘bishop’ provides this as a ‘teaching’. Who is to say that this isn’t just his ‘opinion’ eh du? How is his authority greater than your apostles and prophets on the same subject, recorded in accepted lds publications? Lets see – a recognized lds apostle/prophet and written mormon doctrine or a simple unknown ‘bishop’ and his little stories?
IIRC, you are a geologist by trade. I am a programmer, trust me, I do IF then statements better than you, and I don't get what you get from these scriptures...
FYI, I also hold a minor in computer sciences and computers are essential to my work. But then again, little wonder, even though I put the cookies at your level. Context is just a weakness of yours apparently.
I can never "prove the church true" and you can never "prove the church wrong", only God can tell people if it's true or not. as for "tiring", gee, lurkers, look at the size of the posts I am responding to, it's not the logic, you don't use any, it's the time and quite frankly, I don't think anyone reads these POUS's (Posts Of Unusual Size, nod to The Princess Bride).
LOL, look in the mirror POUS. But the point was whether my citations were ‘true’ and you strawman a ‘church is true’ argument.
So, you dismiss James in favor of... Your interpretation. Good luck with that. As for all you can do... you are misinterpreting that too, why not get something right for a change?
No, I view James within the context of the rest of the NT. Something you should try for once.
Project much? You are the one who took one verse from one book, and another verse from another book and said that provided the context when the verses immediately surrounding them provided the opposite context.
As was shown, Moroni was not out of context. Further, since both Moroni and Nephi were talking about pre-conditions required for grace to be received, the linkage was valid. Are you now saying that those conditions, clearly stated in your doctrine, are false?
What a whiner! Sounds like "I can't check up on your prophet's translation so I'll just mix verses any old way to make it say what I want and you'll have to like it." Sheesh! As for cutting and pasting, computers didn't exist in the 1800's so yet another "theory" of Godzilla's goes down in flames.
Bumper crop of straw eh du? Must account for the evidenced inability to use lexicons by mormons. Cutting and pasting predate computers du – where do you think the phrase came from in the first place (facepalm)
I doubt that I'll waste time on another one of your slanderous, embarrassingly childish huge posts, but by all means embarrass yourself and waste Jim's Bandwidth with a "witty" comeback to the truth.
You can’t handle the truth du, as you post proves to all. A mormon cannot honestly say that they have done “all [they] can do” in regards to their salvation. Unless they can sincerely make that claim, - and who has done EVERYTHING they could, the promise of mormon “grace” does not apply to them.
The good news is that God is not waiting for you to do your best. God stepped in while you were yet sinners. God sent Jesus to save us BECAUSE of our failure to do our best. God accepts us on that basis. Christians can be secure in God’s love, forgiveness and acceptance, freeing us to do works of love, not obligation or debt repayment, for all that God has done for us in Christ.
Jesus never said take up your “garden” and follow me now did he. Paul never said he gloried in the power of the “garden” either.
Delph, you idiot they’re fighting FOR YOU!
More soon, stuff to do
So what do you define as God's children is it a large or a small group?
My opinion has nothing to do with it. God has plainly declared who are His children and who are not.
And I have no idea how large or small the group is.
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. John 1:12-13
I know your religion has taught you to doubt the bible so I guess I can't expect you to beleive it.
lol. Thanks for the correction. 8~)
But you have consequences for not wearing your garments.
So what happens during the LDS rapure-of-a-different name.
What the heck does the cross have to do with religion? I abhor religion.
I'm sorry, I can't accept that. It's not possible.
so theoretically, anything is possible...sort of.
That's what Roman Catholics believe, too. These similarities are amazing.
If grace is "free," then grace is unmerited. No strings. Therefore, in order to be born again, in order to receive grace, in order to be named to God's family, WE, as fallen sinners, do not and cannot DO anything that is capable of "earning" God's grace. No "good work" on our part can equal the "gift" of salvation. We simply RECEIVE God's grace, His predestining favor which He has declared as fact from before the foundation of the world.
Read Ephesians 2.
As for boasting, yeah, we got the bicycle, we saved up a whole 61 cents, Jesus paid the rest, it's not exactly a cause for boasting in my book.
Even 61 cents is robbing God of His due. If salvation is a gift by God's grace alone, then salvation is 100% unmerited, unearned, undeserved. Christ paid for our redemption 100%. If we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit to know the things of God, to believe, repent and obey, Scripture assures us that good works will follow since they are not the result of our own righteousness, but the fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
As for Mormon's denial of the Trinity, this alone puts them outside historic, orthodox Christianity. Three equal persons in one God. God, the Father, elects. God, the Son, justifies and redeems. God, the Holy Spirit, sanctifies. That's the plan of creation, determined by God from before the foundation of the world, put into action by the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and made known to us by the Holy Spirit renewing our minds in order to understand the word of God and discern the truth of Christ risen.
Mormons are a great paradox. We have family and friends who are LDS. They are wonderful people - kind, sincere, intelligent, generous. And they believe some of the most fanciful silliness I've ever read. Which just goes to show that left to themselves, all men are hard-wired to conjure up superstition and self-righteousness.
Read the Bible and pray for ears to hear. It can't hurt. 8~)
"Even 61 cents is robbing God of His due. If salvation is a gift by God's grace alone, then salvation is 100% unmerited, unearned, undeserved. Christ paid for our redemption 100%. If we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit to know the things of God, to believe, repent and obey, Scripture assures us that good works will follow since they are not the result of our own righteousness, but the fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
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