"WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?"

Forest Grove Reformed Church ^ | 9-27-2010 | Rev. Judson Marvel

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Justification and Sanctification are two extremely important concepts to understand, even though they are not everyday words. But they are more than concepts; justification and sanctification help us make sense out of the world, ourselves, and God. In other words, they are not simply "up there" but very relevant to "down here." These concepts are practical.

Justification is the teaching that God declares us right in Jesus Christ. Paul writes in Romans, "For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, though the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (3:22b-24). God declares us right in his sight through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Now, while this might not seem like much, pay attention to what Paul wrote about who we were before Christ: we were sinners who fell short of the glory of God. Paul tells us elsewhere that we were children of wrath, under God's wrath, apart from Christ. By his grace, however, he gave us the gift of Christ whose blood satisfies and atones for the wrath of God, making us children of God. Therefore, we were children of wrath, but now in Christ we are children of God. We were declared sinful and destined for hell, but in Christ we are declared right and destined for glory.

Justification is not our work at all. It is a gift, as Paul writes in Romans 3. It is a perfect gift. Nothing can be added to our justification, for Christ is perfect. For those in Christ, when God the Father looks at you, he sees his perfect Son.

Think of justification as a legal status. Once we were children of parents who didn't want us, but now God has adopted us into his family. We are legally his. There is nothing that can be added to declare us more his. It is done. It is finished.

Sanctification is the teaching that God makes us right through the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul again writes in Romans, "I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." God makes us right -- sanctifies -- through the Holy Spirit.

What's the difference between justification and sanctification? Think about that same analogy of adoption. Legally, an adopted child is a member of that new family. It is a done, perfect deal in the eyes of the law. Nothing can be added to declare it more perfect. However, the child now experiences the new family. He grows to know what it means to be a member of this new family. He changes and becomes more like that new family. This is sanctification.

Whereas justification is a perfect deal done once on the cross by Christ, sanctification is an imperfect process done by the Spirit and us. Whereas justification is a legal status, sanctification is an experience. Whereas justification was done apart from us, sanctification is done in us to make us more like a member of that family.

How does this matter to our daily lives? Well, we easily confuse these two, basing our righteousness on our sanctification, by how good we've been, rather than on the perfect righteousness of Christ. We become either anxious or self-righteous, then. We don't see ourselves as worthy because we aren't focusing on the worthiness of Christ. Or, we think we don't need to do anything to grow because Christ has done it all, forgetting that sanctification is a work between the Spirit and us.

Know the difference between these two concepts. Remind yourself of these every day. One grants us a peace and joy that the world cannot offer. The other gives us purpose in battling indwelling sin and putting on Christ.

[DelphiUser]

Wrong again du. It is your prophet that states that you worship a different Jesus - a fake Jesus that brings a fake salvation.

Please post a link to where my prophet says we worship a fake Jesus that brings a fake salvation... Crickets.

Got your people mixed up du - its your prophets making water and you believe it to be rain. But then again you continue to fail epically to show that I've taken things out of context. But even modern teaching du, tsk, tsk, tsk.

More your rubber and I'm Glue arguments Godzilla? Yawn... the Best way to show how you took things out of context is to link back to the post responding to you, so Here it is as if anyone is going to read after your ridiculously huge post.

Ah, put your Capt'n Hyperbole suit on eh? Got your doctrines mixed up - you just stated mormon doctrine - all will be resurrected. No, if you had READ (there's that word again), my statement incorporated a portion of John 3:16 (please READ your bible more).

No, Capt'n Hyperbole suit is still in your closet.. unless.. Godzilla, your wearing it that's why it's not hanging up!

Resurrection is not Salvation, nor is it Justification, nor is it Eternal Life.

"Words, mean things" -- Rush Limbaugh.

You doughnut story is full of holes, as far as mormon doctrine goes. While yes, Jesus paid the FULL price on the CROSS (not the garden), and the 'gift' can be accepted or rejected - it is like east from west for mormon doctrine du.

So, just curious, what do you believe he was doing in the Garden where he needed an angel to sustain him and sweat great drops of blood? Inquiring minds want to know.

Actually, it was taught in my priesthood class and the bishop was attending (we had a new secretary to be set apart.)

Ah, we see that in mormonism the doughnut ISN'T free, but comes with strings attached (mormon bait and switch?). But we also see that you must "pre-qualify" for that loan - Moroni 10:32 tell you that you must be completely godly before receiving that doughnut. I see you cite the passage later du, so I'll save my more extensive comments till then.

So, Salvation is Free to you? You believe that Jesus just suffered for you and expects nothing, no change, no obedience to his law? Where is that in the Bible? Where in the Bible does it say that You have no responsibility to Jesus after he atones for your sins?

Jesus loves you, but don't make him out to be an idiot. He Saves, and Commands. those who seek to "steal salvation" by claiming the atonement and then reject the commandments will have a rude awakening. (Revelations 3:15-22

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

So don't be lukewarm, Do something! Repent! bear chastisement with Gladness! Overcome the world with and through Jesus! Then you will be invited to sit down in Jesus' throne (become a god) Even as Jesus inherited his father's throne (became a god, and more importantly, our God)(Again, a truth Lost when the Trinity was adopted by Orthodox Christianity!)
Matthew 7:21-29

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Build upon the rock of faith, yes even the faith for which Peter was named, the rock of faith. that rock requires action on the part of the believer! inaction means there is no faith.

Oh most certainly du - are you ignorant of various historic events in your early temples? How about the lovely communing with deceased families in the temple.

When you look in the mirror, are your eyes brown? A visitation by a loved one is not bringing the body into the Temple for some "black magic", prove me wrong... you can't

LOL, for the sins of the WORLD du. I doubt that even you have the same sinless, moral nature that Jesus had, so too your 'proxy' works are equally subpar.

Truly, if I was trying to atone for them, they would be in trouble... But I didn't say that I was atoning for their sins, did I? No, I said the Atonement set the standard of belief in proxy work which it does. Another burning straw man Godzilla?

Oh really now du, sounding like a drama queen.

You must not have any daughters if you think I sound like a drama queen.

Mormon history is full of necromancy - smith 'had become very expert in the arts of necromancy, ' (Mormonism Unveiled) according to those around him. In fact, there is a book that recounts many visits from the dead to LDS members titled, "Spirit World Manifestations Accounts of Divine Aid in Genealogical and Temple and Other Assistance to Latter-day Saints", written by Joseph Heinerman, 1986. Going to one of those arcane resources P Parley Pratt taught:

Oh please, "Mormonism Unveiled", do you have anything reputable, or even believable? Just for the record, visitations by the dead prophets of days gone by like Elijah are not necromancy by any stretch of the imagination. Necromancy is black magic, which has never been practiced in any temple. IF your standards for us are applied to the apostles of the Bible, they were all involved in necromancy when Jesus returned and supped with them. Any answer from Jesus to a prayer is necromancy by your definition.

It's just more of the same, smear, smear, prevaricate, lie and misquote.

here is a video titled TRUTH ABOUT THE MORMONS!!! Mormonism unveiled... more truth is taught in this short video than in all your posts Godzilla.

Needless to say, I chose my words carefully and specifically.

Yes, I'm sure you did. you choose words for shock effect, not for truth.

Woah, a double head fake. Paul said we were saved by grace totally apart from works. But then you had to go and show everyone that you apparently didn't READ the thread article either. For if you had you would have encountered this:

So your s is a triple head fake? Justification is not sanctification, nor is it Eternal life... Wait, I said that before.

Misinterpret - your word - perhaps you can get a hebrew lexicon and a decent commentary and show me otherwise du. When you are doing works of righteousness to prove your worthiness to God, you fail - that is the context of Isaiah du. Even your best is as that. Any works I do, I only do through Christ who strengthens me, because HE is my righteousness. I don't need to hide behind a fig leaf apron.

So, Godzilla, how do you reconcile being commanded to do works and the Bible saying you will be judged by your works with the "no works needed" philosophy you espouse here? No I am not going to go drag lexicons in here, the scriptures say what they say, and I quoted you scriptures and all you want to do is look away from them. If you don't want to follow the whole Bible, it's your funeral, literally.

Pardon me while I get a tissue. You can't handle when I present your prophets and apostles and even modern era doctrinal teachings - and you waste your time with a story. Yawn, yes du, I read the story. Cute, but weak on even coming close to your doctrines. IF we made this example, the little girl didn't do all she could do now did she? The father 'lied' to the girl about getting the bike and made a false promise to her. The same for your other story - they do not reflect mormon doctrine in the least.

So, I say they are what we believe, and they were taught in my ward with the bishop in attendance and you are saying they don't represent our doctrines in the least... well all I can say is you either Don't know our doctrine or you are a first class liar. I think these are wonderful examples of our faith. In the parable of the Bicycle The father did not lie to the little girl, he loved her, and bought her the bicycle. The doughnut story is a wonderful story about the atonement. if you can only see "flaws" well that is more of a reflection on you than on me. Lurkers, I again included links, see if you think these are "flawed" analogies of the atonement, and decide for yourselves.

IIRC, you are a geologist by trade. I am a programmer, trust me, I do IF then statements better than you, and I don't get what you get from these scriptures...

Delph As usual, your characterization of our scriptures as requiring perfection and working our way to heaven only hold up if people don't check your sources. I tire of continually proving you wrong, it's boring to logically win every argument, and it's a pain in the posterior to respond to posts of ridiculous length, so don't be surprised if I don't bother to respond to further bleats of yours.

Godzilla I'm hurt by the callousness of that statement du, because the source you provided didn't uphold your interpretation. Perhaps you weary of TRYING to prove me wrong.

I can never "prove the church true" and you can never "prove the church wrong", only God can tell people if it's true or not. as for "tiring", gee, lurkers, look at the size of the posts I am responding to, it's not the logic, you don't use any, it's the time and quite frankly, I don't think anyone reads these POUS's (Posts Of Unusual Size, nod to The Princess Bride).

Word parsing again du. If works are an outgrowth of true faith (and be-careful of the 'works' specified by James), works are not essential to salvation as they too are a result/outgrowth of that salvation. Remember, it is only AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO that you can receive grace - works prerequisite for salvation.

So, you dismiss James in favor of... Your interpretation. Good luck with that. As for all you can do... you are misinterpreting that too, why not get something right for a change?

One thing I can always count on from you are selections taken out of context. Common cult tendency.

Project much? You are the one who took one verse from one book, and another verse from another book and said that provided the context when the verses immediately surrounding them provided the opposite context.

Delph So, let me get this straight, forget the verses that actually surround the one you are quoting, lets look at another book of scripture entirely and pick a single verse taken from there to put this one in the context of. Why don't you just clip out individual words, or maybe letters from the Book of Mormon and tape them together like a ransom note? you could make it say anything that way!

Godzilla Well given there are no extant "reformed hieroglyphics" to refer back to for clarification. . . . . I've shown my interpretation of Moroni to be sound. . . . overall concepts are not that hard to develop du. But AFA cutting and pasting, smith did enough of that when he conjured up the bom to begin with.

What a whiner! Sounds like "I can't check up on your prophet's translation so I'll just mix verses any old way to make it say what I want and you'll have to like it." Sheesh! As for cutting and pasting, computers didn't exist in the 1800's so yet another "theory" of Godzilla's goes down in flames. Delph Godzilla, I'll give a video example of arguing with an anti about your religion. The Anti Message Vs. Actual Message.

Godzilla Wow having to seek out 'ol Talaban Dan Greyson to endorse your position? No wonder the IQ of the thread dropped orders of magnitude suddenly. Not surprising, but then at least you are not trying to enlist another cult or atheists to your cause this time.

Of a truth, I'd rather spend time with Dan Webster than with Allan Grayson. I have no idea who Dan Grayson is, is that another example of your "stellar" research abilities. In case you didn't get the message, we are Dan Webster, anti's are Allan Grayson when it comes to tactics and message here.

I doubt that I'll waste time on another one of your slanderous, embarrassingly childish huge posts, but by all means embarrass yourself and waste Jim's Bandwidth with a "witty" comeback to the truth.

Delph

[DelphiUser]

A couple of corrections:

We are saved by grace, we just believe we need to do works for the Bible says we will be judged by our works. We will never "earn our way to heaven", it is a gift to those who are at least trying to keep Jesus' commands because of their faith in him.

Jesus is God, he is one of the three members of the Godhead which is in the Bible where the Trinity is not. The Godhead can be referred to as a group as God and all the members can be referred to as God. They are one God and to speak to one is to speak to all for they are one in heart might mind and strength.

As for boasting, yeah, we got the bicycle, we saved up a whole 61 cents, Jesus paid the rest, it's not exactly a cause for boasting in my book.

God bless

[DelphiUser]

Great Googly Moogley!

Look at the size of that post!

What a waste of time responding to Godzilla is!

(Courtesy ping to Godzilla)

Well, Off to bed!

Delph

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Mormonic twisting in the wind placemarker

[SZonian]

"Lurkers will note that Godzilla tries to use the most offensive language possible even stooping to the misuse of offensive words to try to make us look bad."

I think the lurkers are noting that an occassionaly swipe from an anti compared to the constant broadsides endured by the anti's pales in comparison.

I don't believe any of us need to do anything to "make you look bad", a couple of your mormon compatriots on FR do that quite well.

[SZonian]

"...that while the LDS believe Jesus is the a son of God,..." who earned his status in the heavens....

Sorry, had to correct that.

[T Minus Four]

I don't wear a cross because it is the symbol of Christ's death

Well actually, I wear an empty cross because it is a symbol of Christ's resurrection.

Anybody can die. Joseph Smith for instance.

[T Minus Four]

Delph, do you think I should become a member of the LDS church?

[ejonesie22]

(ouch)

[DelphiUser]

I think the lurkers are noting that an occassionaly swipe from an anti compared to the constant broadsides endured by the anti's pales in comparison.

When I go to a thread and post opinions that you are involved in black magic and are not a Christan, worship the Devil, call you names, question your motives, honesty and intelligence, then you might, might, have a leg to stand on on this broadside thing.

We Mormons seem to offend antis just by existing. Anti's need to grow a thicker skin.

I don't believe any of us need to do anything to "make you look bad", a couple of your mormon compatriots on FR do that quite well.

I note with some surprise that you didn't say that I make me look bad, but the company I keep does. Thanks for that small vote of lesser offensiveness.

As for others making me look bad, you know the Gospel is not a Sanctuary for Saints, but a hospital for sinners. I for one, have the room by the corner, and am on Christ's "Eternal Life" support. I am under no illusions that I am worthy of God's love, nor do I think I can work my way to heaven. If I get to heaven, it will be through the grace of my Lord and Savior, and yes he has some things for me to do to show I am in earnest, but I will never earn heaven.

SZonian, a question I hope you will ask honestly to yourself. Do you look better or worse by associating with the other antis?

Delph

[DelphiUser]

I don't wear a cross because it is the symbol of Christ's death

Well actually, I wear an empty cross because it is a symbol of Christ's resurrection.

Honestly, I have never thought of the "Empty Cross" as a symbol of resurrection. Although to me the empty tomb is a better symbol, it is really hard to wear around your neck... :0

Anybody can die. Joseph Smith for instance.

Death, most of us seem to forget is part of the PLAN God has for us, with a few exceptions. IMHO, how you live is more important than how you die.

Delph

[T Minus Four]

Honestly, I have never thought of the "Empty Cross" as a symbol of resurrection

I think about it all the time :-)

Just so you know, I don't believe it gives me any special protection or powers or changes one single thing about me. Except maybe sometimes my behavior - I am representing the risen Jesus, after all.

And it doesn't make God love me any more than He already does, which would be impossible anyway.

[T Minus Four]

Death, most of us seem to forget is part of the PLAN God has for us, with a few exceptions

I'd like to hear more about that.

[DelphiUser]

Delph, do you think I should become a member of the LDS church?

A very interesting question. the answer will probably surprise you.

If you read the Book of Mormon and pray and get a personal revelation that it is true, then yes.

If you are joining because of family pressure, some guy/gal who won't date or marry you until you join, or those nice missionary boys who seem so sincere, or any reason other than you believe it to be true, then Please don't join.

The reasoning is simple, Joining the church is making covenants with God. Anyone who covenants with God and does not live up to those covenants is worse off than they would be if they had not made the covenant with God. Those who are on the records of the church who are not keeping their covenants should either repent and begin again to keep their covenants, or remove their names from the rolls of the church thus removing themselves from the covenant and lessening their condemnation.

T Minus Four, I don't think you are serious, and since I think that, I can only encourage you not to join until you are serious.

Delph

[T Minus Four]

T Minus Four, I don't think you are serious, and since I think that, I can only encourage you not to join until you are serious

But why would I want to? What is to be gained for me, a woman past child-bearing age with no chance of bringing family along. My Christian husband would refuse to let me pay tithing and would not divorce me unless I insisted.

As far as I can tell, there is no way I could improve my life on Earth, nor increase my heavenly reward. So why would I want this?

[DelphiUser]

Delph Honestly, I have never thought of the "Empty Cross" as a symbol of resurrection

T Minus Four I think about it all the time :-)

I'm sure you don't think about Garments being a symbol of covenants as often as I do, it's part of your perspective, a part that I am glad you shared with me, and I am glad I was open enough to receive it.

Just so you know, I don't believe it gives me any special protection or powers or changes one single thing about me. Except maybe sometimes my behavior - I am representing the risen Jesus, after all.

That change in behavior is both the desired outcome and gives you special protection.

I have been asked before if I thought that Garments gave me special protection, my response was that it's a piece of cotton, the convents they remind me of and the faith that they inspire by that remembrance of Jesus, those protect me.

IMHO, a man wearing garments who passes by a strip club because he is wearing garments shares the same protection as a born again who passes by the same strip club fingering his cross around his neck. The cross, the garments are things, faith is the power and it comes from God </Preaching> (sorry about that)

T Minus Four And it doesn't make God love me any more than He already does, which would be impossible anyway.

Agreed!

The question, if God loves all his children, do you really think he wants us to fight? Or would he rather we all sit down, share our experiences and learn from each other?

Delph

[T Minus Four]

Here’s the difference that I can see- I am free to wear or not wear my cross. Nobody suggested it or encouraged it. Nobody issed me a regulation cross (mine actually cost $10 on the clearance rack at Target) It makes no difference to my heavenly reward.

And who’s fighting?

[T Minus Four]

The question, if God loves all his children, do you really think he wants us to fight? Or would he rather we all sit down, share our experiences and learn from each other?

I don't know what to do with a statement like this. First of all, we disagree on the definition of who and who is not "God's children". We can't move on from there.

[DelphiUser]

According to what I have learned, John the Beloved never tasted of Death, in the Book of Mormon there were three Nephites who were promised they would never die, the City of Enoch in the Bible was translated and taken up into heaven, and there are those who will partake in the rapture and be caught up into heaven when Jesus comes again...

That was off the top of my head. Out of the million and billions of people who have been/are and will be on earth, that's a few exceptions to "Death" as part of the plan.

Oh yeah, some speculate that moses never died, but was "translated" due to some verses in the Bible, but it's not a sure thing.

Delph

[T Minus Four]

So the LDS believe in the Rapture? I wondered about that.

Well, what happened to the three Nephites? Were they “assumed” into heaven?