Posted on 01/21/2011 12:26:40 PM PST by marshmallow
The ceremony of communion was instituted at another ceremony done in remembrance of the Passover. It now became a ceremony looking back as what Christ did and to His SECOND coming, just like Passover looked back at what God did in Egypt and looking forward to His FIRST coming.
By Peter’s own words, that he had never eaten anything unclean, he shows that HE knew that the cup and bread were merely wine and bred.
Jesus called the cup *the fruit of the vine* in the three Last Supper accounts in Scripture. Why don’t Catholics take THAT literally?
If Jesus had forced those men to drink blood and violate the Law, which He came to fulfill, He would have been guilty of making them sin.
The prohibition against eating blood came before the Law and was reiterated by the apostles at the Council of Jerusalem which Catholics claim Peter chaired. If they really thought that communion was the literal body and blood of Christ there were remiss for not making it clear then.
So, why didn’t they?
Has there been a person yet who hasn’t died even after taking communion?
I mean, if we’re to take His saying literally, then we shouldn’t be dying.
And the proof of that is.......?
Fake? Worthless?
Yeah..... actually.
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Sacrificing a person on an altar and eating and drinking his blood.
Which two groups do that? You mentioned one already. Satanists.
Communion is a supper of remembrance, just like Passover was.
vague Eucharistic realism in the fathers? nothing vague about st ignatius ( taught personally by st john ) saying gnostics would not take commuion because they did not believe it to be the Body of Christ. you keep your gnostic beliefs, i’ll stand with the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
you don’t understand the Church is the Body of Christ on earth.
No, no, no.
It was the applying of the lamb's blood to the doorposts that spared them. When the death angel saw the blood, it would PASS OVER that house.
Exodus 14 1The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, 2 "This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you. 3Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers’ houses, a lamb for a household. 4And if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his nearest neighbor shall take according to the number of persons; according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb. 5Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, 6and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight. 7"Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9Do not eat any of it raw or boiled in water, but roasted, its head with its legs and its inner parts. 10And you shall let none of it remain until the morning; anything that remains until the morning you shall burn. 11In this manner you shall eat it: with your belt fastened, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the LORD’s Passover. 12For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD. 13 The blood shall be a sign for you, on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you, when I strike the land of Egypt.
14"This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.
21Then Moses called all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go and select lambs for yourselves according to your clans, and kill the Passover lamb. 22Take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and touch the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin. None of you shall go out of the door of his house until the morning. 23 For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you. 24You shall observe this rite as a statute for you and for your sons forever. 25And when you come to the land that the LORD will give you, as he has promised, you shall keep this service. 26And when your children say to you, 'What do you mean by this service?' 27you shall say, 'It is the sacrifice of the LORD’s Passover, for he passed over the houses of the people of Israel in Egypt, when he struck the Egyptians but spared our houses.'" And the people bowed their heads and worshiped.
How so? Communion commemorates a new Covenant, sealed in blood, not that of a lamb but that of the Savior himself. Ezechiel sees that new covenant in terms of a new temple and the renewal of the sacrifices. But we see the Church as that temple and Christ as the Lamb who is sacrificed,once and for all.
Mind reading again?
Saint Paul says: “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.”
(http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53011.htm)
Saint Paul is referring to the Real Presence. Should a man who is unworthily participates in Holy Eucharist “drinketh judgement to himself,” if it were only a symbol? No, he would not.
On the other hand, if, as Our Lord specifically says,”I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” Notice that when the Jews do not understand, He doesn’t say this is a symbol, or that He is using a metaphor.
Instead, He adds, “[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. [59] This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. [60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.” Here He has emphasized His teaching.
(http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50006.htm)
Pay special note to verse 55, regarding your comment: “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.”
Jesus usually explains parables to avoid confusion. He explains here, as well. However, this is NOT a parable. Otherwise, He would have made some clear indication of symbolism directly relating to these words when the Jews said that this saying was hard, since He wants all of us, you, me, the mailman, every single one of us, to strive to become more holy, and to be with Him in heaven. Without any intent to sound snarky or smart-alecky, I marvel when people do not take Him at His word.
You’re free to disagree with the Church, if that is how you feel. I’ll still pray for you, and your understanding, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart, truly. I wish all here a good evening; I’m done with this thread. Have a Blessed Sunday.
Scripture is full of metaphors and types. This is just one more.
And it all points to Jesus.
This is for us to do to remember Him as without something like that, we humans have this tendency to not pay attention to that which is not in front of us regularly.
Salvation is through faith alone. Period. End of story.
Not by eating bread. Not by getting wet. Not by keeping the old Law, nor by keeping some new system of works that Jesus allegedly established for us to do to earn forgiveness and pay for our sins.
Forgiveness isn’t forgiveness and an act of mercy if it’s earned. And what we earn for what we do is death. The wages of sin is death but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You don’t pay for a gift. In that case, it’s not a gift any more.
Read post #7. If you don’t believe the words of Jesus in the Bible, there’s not much more I can say.
**just look at what Satan hates. **
Sola Scriptura.
The GOSPEL preached produces this.....
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2661195/posts
Man made teachings/traditions nullify the Word of God. The POWER is in THE WORD only!
The problem is that Beckwith has been convinced to accept the Roman view despite the evidence. The evidence of "Eucharistic realism" is one thing, and perhaps it is an important thing to the Roman position.Nevertheless, there is no teaching during the first 800 or so years of the church that has these characteristics:
1) The bread becomes not just the body of Christ, but the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, and no longer remains bread.
2) The wine becomes not just the blood of Christ, but the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, and no longer remains wine.
Yet that is what Trent teaches and makes central to the Roman faith. You may find fathers who echo the Scriptural metaphor of the bread being the body and the cup being the blood. You may even find some fathers who go further, and insist that the relationship is more than a mere symbol, but instead is a symbol with power. You may find fathers that talk about a spiritual presence. But you won't find what Trent teaches.
I openly challenge the Roman apologists to bring forth any example of a church father who says that after the consecration the bread is the blood of Christ, much less any church father that teaches both (1) and (2) as explained above. In short, any father of the church that teaches what Trent makes central to the faith.
john 6 25When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, "Rabbi, when did you come here?" 26Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
This is the only "work" that He said we are to do. He destroyed the notion of doing works to earn salvation and saying that sacraments save one is reducing it to works. Different ones than the OT Law, but works of man nevertheless.
Here are more of His words.....
John 3:14-1814And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
It's faith alone. Just believe Him.
Well, yes, but as most Christians say, when we speak of Jesus as the Bread of Life or as the Lamb of God, we are talking about what can be seen only with the eyes of faith. A communal feast is all about the persons who attend. The mass is about Christ.
Two of my favorite example of the metaphors of the fathers are from Ignatius:
You, therefore, must arm yourselves with gentleness and regain your strength in faith (which is the flesh of the Lord) and in love (which is the blood of Jesus Christ).See J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer, eds. and trans., The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations of Their Writings, 2nd. ed., The Letters of Ignatius, To the Trallians, Chapter 8 (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1992), p. 163.Greek text: Ὑμεῖς οὖν τὴν πραϋπάθειαν ἀναλαβόντες ἀνακτίσασθε ἑαυτοὺς ἐν πίστει, ὅ ἐστιν σὰρξ τοῦ κυρίου, καὶ ἐν ἀγάπῃ, ὅ ἐστιν αἷμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
And again:
Ignatius (@ 110 AD): I take no pleasure in corruptible food or the pleasures of this life. I want the bread of God, which is the flesh of Christ who is of the seed of David; and for drink I want his blood, which is incorruptible love.See J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer, eds. and trans., The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations of Their Writings, 2nd. ed., The Letters of Ignatius, To the Romans, Chapter 7 (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1992), p. 175.Greek text: Oὐχ ἥδομαι τροφῇ φθορᾶς οὐδὲ ἡδοναῖς τοῦ βίου τούτου. Ἄρτον θεοῦ θέλω, ὅ ἐστιν σὰρξ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, «τοῦ ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυίδ», καὶ πόμα θέλω τὸ αἷμα αὐτοῦ, ὅ ἐστιν ἀγάπη ἄφθαρτος.
And, of course, there are fathers who seem to have taken a view that is inconsistent with the crassly carnal view of Rome, such as Tertullian:
Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, 'This is my body,' that is, the figure of my body.ANF, Vol. 3, Against Marcion, 4.40.
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