Posted on 01/21/2011 12:26:40 PM PST by marshmallow
The Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is a real stumbling block to some Protestants who are seriously considering Catholicism. It was for me too, until I explored the subject, historically and scripturally. What follows is a summary of my deliberations.
Catholicism holds that bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ when they are consecrated by the priest celebrating the Mass. Oftentimes non-Catholics get hung up on the term transubstantiation, the name for the philosophical theory that the Church maintains best accounts for the change at consecration. The Church’s explanation of transubstantiation was influenced by Aristotle’s distinction between substance and accident.
Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), like most philosophers of his time, wanted to account for how things change and yet remain the same. So, for example, a “substance” like an oak tree remains the same while undergoing “accidental” changes. It begins as an acorn and eventually develops roots, a trunk, branches, and leaves. During all these changes, the oak tree remains identical to itself. Its leaves change from green to red and brown, and eventually fall off. But these accidental changes occur while the substance of the tree remains.
On the other hand, if we chopped down the tree and turned into a desk, that would be a substantial change, since the tree would literally cease to be and its parts would be turned into something else, a desk. According to the Church, when the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ, the accidents of the bread and wine do not change, but the substance of each changes. So, it looks, tastes, feels, and smells like bread and wine, but it literally has been changed into the body and blood of Christ. That’s transubstantiation.
There are several reasons why it would be a mistake to dismiss transubstantiation simply because of the influence of Aristotle on its formulation. First, Eastern Churches in communion with the Catholic Church rarely employ this Aristotelian language, and yet the Church considers their celebration of the Eucharist perfectly valid. Second, the Catholic Church maintains that the divine liturgies celebrated in the Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome (commonly called “Eastern Orthodoxy”) are perfectly valid as well, even though the Eastern Orthodox rarely employ the term transubstantiation. Third, the belief that the bread and wine are literally transformed into Christ’s body and blood predates Aristotle’s influence on the Church’s theology by over 1000 years. For it was not until the thirteenth century, and the ascendancy of St. Thomas Aquinas’ thought, that Aristotle’s categories were employed by the Church in its account of the Eucharist. In fact, when the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) employed the language of substantial change, St. Thomas had not even been born!
It was that third point that I found so compelling and convinced me that the Catholic view of the Eucharist was correct. It did not take long for me to see that Eucharistic realism (as I like to call it) had been uncontroversially embraced deep in Christian history. This is why Protestant historian, J. N. D. Kelly, writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood.” I found it in many of the works of the Early Church Fathers, including St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110), St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 151), St. Cyprian of Carthage, (A. D. 251), First Council of Nicaea (A. D. 325), St. Cyril of Jerusalem (A. D. 350), and St. Augustine of Hippo (A. D. 411) . These are, of course, not the only Early Church writings that address the nature of the Eucharist. But they are representative.
This should, however, not surprise us, given what the Bible says about the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus celebrated the Last Supper with his disciples (Mt. 26:17-30; Mk. 14:12-25; Lk. 22:7-23), which we commemorate at Holy Communion, he referred to it as a Passover meal. He called the bread and wine his body and blood. In several places, Jesus is called the Lamb of God (John 1: 29, 36; I Peter 1:19; Rev. 5:12). Remember, when the lamb is killed for Passover, the meal participants ingest the lamb. Consequently, St. Paul’s severe warnings about partaking in Holy Communion unworthily only make sense in light of Eucharistic realism (I Cor. 10:14-22; I Cor. 11:17-34). He writes: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? . . . Whoever, therefore eats and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” (I Cor. 10:16; 11:27)
In light of all these passages and the fact that Jesus called himself the bread of life (John 6:41-51) and that he said that his followers must “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood” (John 6:53), the Eucharistic realism of the Early Church, the Eastern Churches (both in and out of communion with Rome), and the pre-Reformation medieval Church (fifth to sixteenth centuries) seems almost unremarkable. So, what first appeared to be a stumbling block was transformed into a cornerstone.
Francis J. Beckwith is Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University. He tells the story of his journey from Catholicism to Protestantism and back again in his book, Return to Rome: Confessions of An Evangelical Catholic. He blogs at Return to Rome.
But, but, but, penance is one of those *new* works instituted that we should do to gain our salvation, dontcha know?
After all, Catholics think it would be better for us to wander around in burlap sacks eating locus and wild honey.
do you intenionally misstate Catholic teaching or don’t you know any better. i thought the prohibition about “bearing false witness” was still in the Bible, or do you have a newer version?
INDEED.
It’s kind of like they want to split hairs and say when Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” it was different than when he said of the bread “This is my body.” Yet he also said “I am the true vine”, “I am the water of life”; “I am the door”; “I am the great shepherd”; etc.
All of a sudden, he is supposedly switching gears and saying, “No, guys, really, this time I mean it literally.” Just doesn’t strike me as consistent.
I had a teacher in college give an example about when Scripture said Jesus would sit on the right hand of the Father, the Father didn’t say, “Here Son, sit on my hand.”
Further the more I've considered why is it so important for catholics to adhere to these being actually physically taking in Christ...the more insane the idea of becomes.
Oddly enough, even from the time I was a new Christian....I never once considered the sacraments as it's being depicted by Rome...never even crossed my mind to consider. And at that period of my Christian walk i was “drinking” in the scriptures as often as I could take time for. “Like a deer pants for water.” The Lord revealed many truths then ..but never that these sacraments were more than remembering the great price Jesus made on my behalf.
So now that I've studied about this...Nice to say Jesus knew what He was doing when this practice, as Rome states, never crossed my mind. there fore this is something which man teaches and IMO gross to imagine.
Organ Angels? ;-)
If suffering produces virtue I’ve seen way too much virtue.
More than once. Sometimes it was like peanut butter and you had to use your tongue. God forbid they saw a finger sneaking in to help out.
That reminds me of a joke:
There's only two ways to get peanut butter off the roof of your mouth. One is to try and suck it off with your tongue. But that doesn't work too well. The other way is to use your finger to scrape it off.
There's only two ways to get peanut butter off your finger. One way is to shake it off. But that doesn't work too well. The other way is to suck it off with your mouth.
There's two ways to get peanut butter off the roof of your mouth... :o)
I’m trying hard to just let that one uhhh lie there.
Too many old jokes are coming to mind.
Could be.
I heard a joke today.
Two nuns were driving after dark and all of a sudden a vampire leapt out in front of them and unto the hood of the car. “Quick!” said the driving nun to the other, “Show him your cross!!!”
Leaning out the window, she yelled,”Get the hell off our car!!!” :o)
I’m not sure Rabid Clique types can jump tall buildings with a single bound.
I think they must resort to leaving that to Magnificent Magical Mary and her Magic White Hanky ride.
Or perhaps meaty meaninful finger moments are to be kept hidden from the unwashed Proddys.
Or maybe something thoughtful, Biblical and spiritually uplifting is not something within the scope of dogmatic authoritarian Vatican AIWSOTARM missions. Maybe only the elite magicsterical types are authorized to pontificate at word filled length.
Or perhaps a new Station of the Stations of the White Hanky has been in stalled . . . what number would that be in the revised list . . . YES INDEEDY HERE IT IS: THE NEW 19TH STATION OF
THE STATIONS OF THE WHITE HANKY:
19. ICON OF THE GILDED IVORY AK47 IN BEHALF OF RC RABID CLIQUE DRIVE BY SHOOTINGS AT PRODDYS ON BLOGS FAR AND WIDE.
But, be honest, it’s nice to know she is still reading this thread, right? ;o)
The Church is the Body of Christ, can you seperate the head from the body??
is that concept that hard to understand, read your Bible!
The believers are the Body of Christ and the Body of Christ does not equal Roman Catholic Church.
Believers don’t worship idols and they know whose blood is the one that makes them righteous in God’s eyes.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
See ? no Mary
ONLY JESUS
and any church that preaches otherwise is preaching a LIE
FROM:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657209/posts?page=1670#1670
88% of Catholics believe that they can practice artificial means of birth control and still be considered good Catholics.
Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants.
73% (highest) of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly affirm that Christ was sinless on earth, with Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists being tied at 33%, and the lowest being among Episcopalians with just 28%
64% of those in Assemblies of God churches (versus only 9% of Catholics) strongly DISAGREE that if a person is generally good, or does enough good things for others they will earn a place in Heaven [salvation on the basis of merit].
56% of Assemblies of God (versus 17% Catholics) Christians strongly DISAGREE that Satan is just a symbol of evil [rather than a real being].
By denomination, 61% of the those associated with an Assemblies of God church said they had shared their faith at least once during the past year, followed by 61% of those who attend a Pentecostal/Foursquare church, and ending 14% among Episcopalians and just 10% among Roman Catholics
52% of Evangelical Christians have had a meaningful discussion about their faith with a non-Christian during the past month. 28% of other Protestants and 18% of Catholics also have held such a discussion.
81% of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly agree that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches , followed by 77% of Assemblies of God believers, and ending with 26% of Catholics and 22% of Episcopalians.
40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59%
Catholics broke with their Church's teachings more than most other groups, with just six out of 10 Catholics affirming that God is "a person with whom people can have a relationship", and three in 10 describing God as an "impersonal force."
70 % of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus [it is, of His death], indicating they do not believe it is Jesus actual body and blood
46 percent of Catholics who say they attend mass weekly accept Church teaching on abortion; 43 percent accept the all-male priesthood; and 30 percent see contraception as morally wrong.
31% of faithful Catholics (those who attend church weekly) say abortion should be legal either in "many" or in "all" cases.
73 percent of Catholics rejected Catholic teaching artificial methods of birth control.
Only 20 percent strongly agreed with the Church teaching that only men may be ordained.
59% of all Catholic women of childbearing age practice contraception—a rate of usage statistically equivalent to that of the general population (60%).
66% of Catholics supported women's ordination to the priesthood, and 73% approved of the way John Paul II leads the church.
80% of Catholics believe it is possible to disagree with the pope on official positions on morality and still be a good Catholic.
77 % of Catholics polled "believe a person can be a good Catholic without going to Mass every Sunday, 65 percent believe good Catholics can divorce and remarry, and 53 percent believe Catholics can have abortions and remain in good standing.
49 percent affirmed that it was always a sin to engage in homosexual behavior, often, 25 percent; and never, 19 percent.
39 percent of Roman Catholics and 79 percent of born-again, evangelical or fundamentalist Americans affirm that homosexual behavior is sinful.
79 percent of American Jews, 58 percent of Catholics and 56 percent of mainline Protestants favor acceptance of homosexuality, versus 39 percent of members of historically black churches, 27 percent of Muslims and 26 percent of the evangelical Protestants. U.S
FOLLOWING FROM:
http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html#Sec4
Weekly attendance among Protestants has been fairly steady over the past six decades, averaging 42% in 1955 versus 45% in the middle of the current decade. However, attendance among Roman Catholics dropped from 75% to 45% over the same period.
45 percent of adult Catholics said they never participate in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession), 30 percent say they go to Confession less than once a year, 26% go once a year or more often. Only 2 percent of Catholics do so once a month or more often. CARA at Georgetown University, 2007
52% of adult Catholics said they pray the rosary. 8% died so at least once a week (4 percent say they do so every day), while 48 percent said they never did. CARA at Georgetown University, 2007
Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants. Alan Guttmacher Institute http://www.catholicleague.org/research/Catholic_women_and_abortion.htm
44 percent of the priests said "definitely" a homosexual subculture'--defined as a `definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary'--exists in their diocese or religious order. ^8.5
Only 30 percent of Catholic (97% claim to be so) in Italy attend church. In larger cities as Milan, the ratio is only 15 percent, according to church officials. Famiglia Cristiana,Catholic weekly magazine.
54% of Hispanic Catholics describe themselves as charismatic Christians. 51%of Hispanic Evangelicals are converts, and 43% are former Catholics. 90% say it was a spiritual search for a more direct, personal experience with God was the main reason that drove their conversion.
In Catholic France (76% claim to be so) only 12 percent say they go to church on Sunday (Vatican officials say only 5 percent in cities such as Paris). Georgetown University's Center for the Study of Global Christianity. Charles M. Sennott, Globe Staff, May 2, 2005 ©Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company. http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2005/05/02/Catholic_church_withers_in_europe?mode=PF
In Catholic Ireland (90%) less than 50 percent attend Mass even once a month, (down from 91% 30 years ago) estimates a recent church study. ^
10 percent of Protestants, 21 percent of Roman Catholics, and 52 percent of Jews do NOT believe in God. Harris Interactive Poll, Copyright © 2003 CompuServe Interactive Services, Inc. All rights reserved. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/JewsDontBelieve.htm
OH DEAR!
Did she have her ruler in hand?
I refuse to answer that question
on the grounds that it might expose my
mixed feelings.
LOL.
He died ONCE to pay for it all .
He is not a little piece of bread that needs to be killed every week.
let’s see, in this post we have a “twofer”
Catholic doctrine teaches Jesus died ONCE for our sins, and death has no more hold on Him.
Catholic doctrine does not teach He is a little piece of bread that needs to be killed each week.
But, you know this already!
I love debates and I have noticed a truism, the side that feels the need to misrepresent or lie about the beliefs of the other side, is losing the debate. nuf said.
“believers don’t worship idols” AGREED!!!!!!!
“see no mary” AGREED!!!!!!
LOL!
Lord Jesus Christ,
only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world:
have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit,
in the glory of God the Father, Amen.
If you ever attended a Catholic Mass, this prayer is said every Mass! Look, no Mary!!!! ( notice all the “alone” words )
Is that why your posting history is one big concession post?
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