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To: betty boop; D-fendr; xzins; TXnMA; MHGinTN; spirited irish; James C. Bennett; YHAOS
In the first place, in this passage, the correct word isn't "exists," it's "consists".
 
Really? What word did he use in Greek?
 
The prefix "con" stipulates a relation to something outside the cognitive self.
 
Really? The word consistere comes from late Latin (16th century AD), and means to cause to stand with. Socrates lived in the 5th century BC, 2000 years before the word consist was coined, and he used Greek, not Latin. So, how do you know what word he used? "Spiritual hunch"?
 
[Socrates] did say something to the effect that "I know that I know nothing; and because of this knowledge, I am wiser than other men."
 
How do you exactly know what he said? You are paraphrasing him. With what authority or qualifications? And you are mind-reading him.
 
And how does that make what I simply quoted a "grotesque misrepresentation" when I never even attempted to interpret, let alone freely paraphrase him?
 
Of all the persons you cite, kosta, Einstein is probably the most profoundly religious in spirit. Alamo-Girl and I have been posting excerpts of his comments along these lines forever it seems, and to you directly
 
I have seen your and AG's excerpts, which conveniently leave out those that disagree with your claim, such as "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever." or "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive." Or "I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic." Einstein was almost forced to leave the US because of his atheist stand. I think you might expand your views with some adiditonal reading such as Einstein and Religion by Max Jammer.
 
This "most profoundly religious in spirit" (whatever that means) was viciously attacked by Kansas City Bishop for "denying the great tradition of [the Jewish] race." And the founder of the Calvary Tabernacle Association in Oklahoma invited him, on behalf of all Christians in America, "to go back where you came from."
 
Apparently Einstein's Christian contemporaries saw him in a much different light than someone "most profoundly religious in spirit."
 
And thus, for the third time, your "source" is acknowledging a mysterious "beyond" the Limit of human reason....
 
And your point is?

653 posted on 01/21/2011 7:14:47 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit...give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- Mithral prayer)
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To: kosta50

I venture to say that her point is, you love playing contrarian. Christopher Hitchens does too. Can you match his intellect? ... Will it amount to a tinkers dime if you’re wrong and God really does exist, Is Creator, and knows whom you are, intimately? We’re trying to share with you that it will infact be very important. Whereas, if you’re right, not a tinker would give you change for nothing.


654 posted on 01/21/2011 7:21:39 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; caww; D-fendr; xzins; TXnMA; MHGinTN; spirited irish; James C. Bennett; ...
How do you exactly know what he said? You are paraphrasing him. With what authority or qualifications? And you are mind-reading him.

My paraphrase is based on Plato's quote of Socrates in the Apology. Here is the relevant passage — you can judge for yourself how "accurate" my paraphrase is ("I know that I know nothing; and because of this knowledge, I am wiser than other men.")

...I will endeavor to explain to you the reason why I am called wise and have such an evil fame. Please to attend then. And although some of you may think that I am joking, I declare that I will tell you the entire truth. Men of Athens, this reputation of mine has come of a certain sort of wisdom which I possess. If you ask me what kind of wisdom, I reply, wisdom such as may perhaps be attained by man, for to that extent I am inclined to believe that I am wise; whereas the persons of whom I was speaking have a superhuman wisdom, which I may fail to describe, because I have it not myself; and he who says that I have, speaks falsely.... And here, O men of Athens, I must beg you not to interrupt me, even if I seem to say something extravagant. For the word which I will speak is not mine. I will refer you to a witness who is worthy of the credit; that witness shall be the God of Delphi —

Time for a time-out: the "persons" to whom Socrates alludes are the God of Delphi, Apollo, the sun god; and the Pythia, Apollo's prophetess and priestess, through whom his oracle spoke. Picking up where we left off

— he will tell you about my wisdom, if I have any, and of what sort it is. You must have known Chaerephon; he was an early friend of mine.... Well, Chaerephon, as you know, was very impetuous in all his doings, and he went to Delphi and boldly asked the oracle to tell him whether ... anyone was wiser than I was, and the Pythian prophetess answered, that there was no man wiser....

When I heard the answer, I said to myself, what can the god mean? and what is the interpretation of this riddle? for I know that I have no wisdom, small or great. What then can he mean when he says I am the wisest of men? And yet he is a god, and cannot lie; that would be against his nature. After long consideration, I thought of a method of trying the question. I reflected that if I could only find a man wiser than myself, then I might go to the god with a refutation in my hand. I should say to him, "Here is a man who is wiser than I am; but you said that I was the wisest." Accordingly, I went to one who had the reputation of wisdom, and observed him — his name I need not mention; he was a politician whom I selected for examination — and the result was as follows: When I began to talk with him, I could not help thinking that he was not really wise, although he was thought wise by many, and still wiser by himself; and thereupon I tried to explain to him that he thought himself wise, but was not really wise, and the consequence was that he hated me, and his enmity was shared by several who were present and heard me. So I left him, saying to myself as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, I am better off than he is — for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows; I neither know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him....

Then I went to one man after another, being not unconscious of the enmity I provoked, and I lamented and feared this: but necessity was laid upon me — the word of God, I thought, ought to be considered first.... And I swear to you, Athenians, by the dog I swear! — for I must tell you the truth — the result of my mission was just this: I found that the men most in repute were all but the most foolish; and that others less esteemed were really wise and better....

And I am called wise, for my hearers always imagine that I possess the wisdom which I find wanting in others: but the truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise.... [Emphasis added.]


727 posted on 01/22/2011 10:34:10 AM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
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