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To: D-fendr
One of the reasons I like the First Cause argument is that there are fewer problems with it than without it

Is God eternally creating or did he, in his eternity, not always create? If you believe the latter, which is the First Cause argument, then the we have the paradox that an unchanging God would have had to change in order to begin creating!

On the other hand, if the ever-changing universe existed forever, then nothing had to change for the universe to exist and repeat itself eternally.

441 posted on 01/19/2011 12:10:55 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit...give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- Mithral prayer)
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To: James C. Bennett

ping


442 posted on 01/19/2011 12:11:20 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit...give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- Mithral prayer)
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To: kosta50; D-fendr

Exactly.

It is easier to grasp the fundamental truth that change implies time than it is to assign arbitrary starting points that mark dramatic change, and then say that the processes that lead to it were independent of change (time).


443 posted on 01/19/2011 12:16:44 PM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: kosta50
Is God eternally creating or did he, in his eternity, not always create?

I think we run into the same problem here as before when using eternal to mean "neverending" instead of "outside time."

The argument for the cause of time being outside time means words such as "always" are nonsensical. If there is no time, there's no notions such as always or the contrary "for a limited period of time."

On the other hand, if the ever-changing universe existed forever

It surprises me to see you refer to this theory since the current scientific evidence is against it. This was the view prior. The debate now is over a closed versus open universe, with the current - not to be confused with firmly proven - view that it is open; the end state therefore being something akin to a Big Freeze.

450 posted on 01/19/2011 12:34:53 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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