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To: kosta50; xzins; TXnMA; betty boop; James C. Bennett; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis; MHGinTN
On your first issue concerning what constitutes "fact" I once again offer my testimony:

God is not a hypothesis. He lives. His Name is I AM. I've known Him for a half century and counting.

On your second issue concerning the beginning of space/time and multi-verse theory, I once again offer these insights:

Physical causation requires both space and time and there was a beginning of real space and real time. From the 1960s forward, measurements consistently agree that the universe is expanding, that there was a beginning of real space and real time. Indeed, that was the most theological statement ever to come out of modern science. (Jastrow) “In the beginning, God …”

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Truly, all physical cosmologies rely on physical causation – space and time – whether inflationary, multi-verse, multi-world, ekpyrotic, cyclic, imaginary time, etc. All of the prior universe models superimpose this universe’s physical causation, space/time and indeed, physical laws onto prior universes all the while admitting that there is no such requirement that a prior universe would be like this one.

The big bang is the most widely accepted point of agreement among them, but a singularity is not nothing – the big bang also requires space and time:

Mathematically, the dimension of a space is the minimum number of coordinates (axes) necessary to identify a point within the space. A space of zero dimensions is a point; one dimension, a line, two dimensions, a plane; three, a cube, etc. That is the geometry of it. In zero dimensions, the mathematical point is indivisible.

It is not nothing. It is a spatial point. A singularity is not nothing.

In ex nihilo Creation (beginning of space/time) - the dimensions are not merely zero, they are null, dimensions do not exist at all. There is no space and no time. Period.

There is no mathematical point, no volume, no content, no scalar quantities. Ex nihilo doesn’t exist in relationship to anything else; there is no thing.

In an existing physical space, each point (e.g. particle) can be parameterized by a quantity such as mass. The parameter (e.g. a specific quantity within the range of possible quantities) is in effect another descriptor or quasi-dimension that uniquely identifies the point within the space.

Moreover, if the quantity of the parameter changes for a point, then a time dimension is invoked. For example, at one moment the point value is “0” and the next it is “1”.

Wave propagation (e.g. big bang, inflation) cannot occur in null dimensions nor can it occur in zero spatial dimensions, a mathematical point; a dimension of time is required for any fluctuation in a parameter value at a point.

Moreover, wave propagation must also have a spatial/temporal relation from cause point to effect point, i.e. physical causation.

For instance “0” at point nt causes “1” at point n+1t+1 which causes "0" at point n+1t+2 etc..

Obviously, physical wave propagation (e.g. big bang/inflationary model) cannot precede space/time and physical causality. Again,

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Both space and time are required for physical causation.

The wise man asks: Why this instead of nothing at all?

And he realizes that only God, beyond space/time and physical causation, can be the uncaused cause of causation, the first cause, The Creator of the beginning.

Space, time and physical causation are not properties of God the Creator. They are properties of the Creation. Only God is uncaused.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

The origin of space, time and physical causation – although striking - are not the only open questions that vex physical cosmologists. There is also no explanation for the origin of information (Shannon, successful communication,) inertia, semiosis, autonomy and so on. And yet the universe is logical – if it were not, we could not understand it at all.

Order cannot arise from chaos in an unguided physical system. Period. There are always guides to the system whether one is using chaos theory, self-organizing complexity, cellular automata or whatever to analyze complexification, entropy and order.

Indeed, to me, the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics (Wigner) is God’s copyright notice on the cosmos.

Logos is the Greek word which is translated “Word” in the following passage. It is also the root for the word “Logic:”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

And finally, concerning your sidebar with xzins, I say here as I have said on many threads before that Paradise/Eden and Adamic man, like the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple and the Holy Mountain, are not strictly physical.

The insight of some Jewish mystics may be helpful on this point. They perceive the firmament is not a geometric separation between "here" and "there" but rather the boundary between the physical and the spiritual. Some have further conjectured that the separation may be the speed of light, the speed limit of the universe, or pressure waves.

That said, in higher dimensional dynamics (e.g. P.S. Wesson's 5D/2T) the separation can indeed be geometric and yet overlapping at some or all points (think a tesseract four space versus a cube, a three space.)

Likewise, some Jewish mystics offer an insight that might be helpful in comprehending that God is the Creator of "all that there is" including space, time and causation. More specifically, they use the term Ayn Sof to refer to Him as the Creator. The term literally means "no thing" and conveys the point that any word we mere mortals would use to describe Him (e.g. time, space, causation) limits our ability to know Who He IS to the term that we used.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:8

Man is not the measure of God.

363 posted on 01/18/2011 11:46:21 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Well and truly stated. Kudos, Sister in Christ!

God Created all that there is and was nothing made that was made except that God Created ... God creates by His Word, by information. Things--like light--are not what God made the universe with/from, His Word--Information--is what God Creates with. He builds with things and things must have time and space in which to be (the first command, 'Light be'), thus prior to the time and space and energy packets there IS His Word, His Information ... God created/creates/will create with Information, His Word. Even the realm of spirits will be found to have spatio-temporal limits set by His Word.

364 posted on 01/18/2011 12:06:58 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; xzins; TXnMA; betty boop; James C. Bennett; MarkBsnr; MHGinTN
On your first issue concerning what constitutes "fact" I once again offer my testimony:

Your testimony, AG, is not a proof.

On your second issue concerning the beginning of space/time and multi-verse theory, I once again offer these insights:

AG, my question was how does your source know the Big Bag was the "beginning"? How does he know the Big Bag is not something that has repeated itself forever and, more importantly, how do you know what pre-existed the Big Bang? That's all.

And finally, concerning your sidebar with xzins, I say here as I have said on many threads before that Paradise/Eden and Adamic man, like the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple and the Holy Mountain, are not strictly physical

My sidebar with xzins was simply an expansion of the point I made earlier, namely that your presentations was essentially Gnostic. I also took issue with your translation of Gen 2:17 and showed you that  your translation (and erroneous conclusion based on it) is not the translation (and conclusion) of those who know ancient Hebrew.

416 posted on 01/18/2011 10:21:39 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit...give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- Mithral prayer)
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