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To: kosta50
"There are plenty of references to photons having mass."

Provide the evidence. ...from a reputable source, like from a university physics department, or a Nat'l/Int'l Lab.

Re: Mass is energy

"Well, then photons have mass."

No. Mass is a particular set of properties that some members of the set of real particles arising out of energetic fields have. Mass indicates that a particle arising out of an energy field can remain stationary and the particle requires energy to be transferred to it in order to accelerate and an energy release to decelerate. The set is real particles, which has more members than just massive particles.

Mass is the result of a particle's energy coupling with a uniform, non-directional(scalar) field of the vacuum called the Higgs field. The Higgs field can be considered as the lowest energy state of the vacuum after the BB, and is a coupling of particle energy to the compactified dimensions of space. That means that some of the particle's energy exists in the compact dimensions of space/vacuum. In order to accelerate a massive particle, energy must be transferred to the particle to occupy at least 7 compacted dimensions and the 4 dimensions of extended space. That increase in energy with velocity, which must be partitioned and transferred to compacted space, results in a mass increase of the particle, from it's initial inertial state of mo.

A Photon is a force carrier that has no mass. It is a facilitator of electromagnetic(EM) energy transfer between massive particles with an EM component in this world. ie. those particles outside the vacuum. Unlike massive particles, their propagation velocity does not depend on their energy. A photon's velocity is simply determined by polarization interactions with the vacuum. Vacuum polarizations act as a reversible drag process. The average of the polarization interactions are the vacuum's electric permittivity(εo) and magnetic permeability(μo) constants. The speed of light is determined by those two numbers:

c=1/sqrt(εoμo)

Re: Space expands, because of the negative pressure of the vacuum

"You mean to tell me you understand what that means?

Yes.

" What is negative pressure in a vacuum?

Space is observed to be expanding. See Hubble's Law. Space is the vacuum. The BB was a phase transition; where the energy that comprises particles, arose out of the vacuum at the time of the BB are a different phase than that of the vacuum. The new phase is embedded in the vacuum and the gravitational field is an image of that phase on the vacuum. The image is formed by causing the extended dimensions to increase their curvature locally and the compacted dimensions to undergo an angular displacement, both in accordance with the local energy/momentum content.

That energy momentum content is represented by the stress-energy tensor of GR, Tμν. T00 is the local energy density(ρ) and Ti,j, where (i=j=1,2,3), is the normal stress/(unit area) in the ith direction.

In order to determine what the pressure in the vacuum is, one must first note that the vacuum must look the same to all inertial observers. That means any coordinate transformation must result in an invariant p and ρ and that ρ=-p. The fig. below from Ned Wright, UCLA, shows the calc. β and γ are Lorentz factors that aren't important here and c can be set to one. After that, one must have data on the actual energy density of the vacuum, which is found from observing Hubble redshift data-the observed expansion of space.

Observations show that the effective energy density is slightly positive and close to zero. That means the pressure of the vacuum is negative. What does that mean? It means the vacuum is pulling itself back together and "expelling" the embedded energy of this world and it's gravitational field. It means that the internal binding energy of the vacuum is greater than the gravitational force between gravitationally bound groups of matter/energy, such as galaxies and clusters... All the energy of this world is being isolated, to be left to radiate back into the vacuum as entropic noise.

The pressure doesn't represent vacuum fluctuations, other than the level and particular energy distribution that results from the difference in cohesive energy density between the vacuum and the energy that comprises this world.

Above for fair use by noting © Scott Stillwell(spunkets)(2011)

Work fig from Ned Wright, UCLA.

Work fig from Ned Wright, UCLA.

" I am waiting for more copy and paste rubbish."

You already posted it. Do you think if it's posted, you won't see it again 'till I post it back to you?

Re:"Quantum mechanics does describe the world, regardless of your analogy.

So does the Ptolemaic navigational system. And even though it's based on geocentric universal model, it still works. Just because a working model works doesn't mean it describes the world the way it is."

QM is a fundamental and general theoretical body of knowledge that can be used to describe the relevant physics of anything in the universe.

Re: "GR does describe gravity and how one would experience it. ...In spite of your analogy."

"So, how we experience things is how the world really is? Can we get any more narcissistic?"

The equivalence principle comes to mind; especially in connection with falling elevators.

1,485 posted on 02/17/2011 8:56:08 PM PST by spunkets
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To: spunkets
Re: "It means that the internal binding energy of the vacuum is greater than the gravitational force between gravitationally bound groups of matter/energy, such as galaxies and clusters..."

Of course the driving force itself is the difference in binding energy with and w/o the embedded matter. As long as that's so, the pressure is negative and expansion occurs.

1,486 posted on 02/17/2011 9:14:21 PM PST by spunkets
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To: spunkets
No. Mass is a particular set of properties that some members of the set of real particles arising out of energetic fields have.

Mass and energy are convertible; two different states of the same thing. Like water and ice or iodine and its vapor. Both are suscceptibe to spacetime warp (gravity).

Photos have no rest mass. At c, some theorize otherwise, fwiw.

Space is the vacuum

You mean space with little or no matter? And what is "space"? (the word vacuum means empty). Is "empty" a finite "thing"? You do realize this is no different than talking snakes an donkeys...or pink unicorns on Jupiter.

[What is negative pressure in a vacuum?] Space is observed to be expanding

And how do you "observe" space "expanding? Expanding into what?

Observations show that the effective energy density is slightly positive and close to zero

Just how close to zero? You know scientists love to exaggerate their claims or trust their readings way too much. After all they do have to publish to keep their tenures...so getting desired or expected results is not without an incentive...I have seen way too much rubbish to have treat all research with a grain of salt.

Look at the Hubble Telescope. After 20 years (someone's entire career!) of development and planning, it came off the production line "myopic" because the chief engineer trusted the Gaviola null test with only one test set! He trusted the readings. Idiot. In other words, he used a "yardstick" without making sure it was exactly a "yard"!

I have had people claim surface accuracy on some optical equipment that is mythology. At λ/20, a surface becomes distorted from the heat of your body if you stand next to it for a few minutes (after which it takes hours to equilibrating, and eveyrreaidng is different). Yet they claim surface accuracy three times that much and the "prove" it with their Photoshop doctored Foucault tests rather than an interferogram!

QM is a fundamental and general theoretical body of knowledge that can be used to describe the relevant physics of anything in the universe.

It's still a working model but some treat it like a Bible.

1,488 posted on 02/17/2011 10:54:49 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: spunkets
Above for fair use by noting © Scott Stillwell(spunkets)(2011)

Scott Stillwell? You know how many Scott Stillwells are there? Why don't you provide a link?

1,489 posted on 02/17/2011 10:59:56 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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