The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[Cronos]

You seriously did not read, did you?

The job of the flock is to follow The Good shepherd, Christ, to focus on Him, not on the sub-shepherds who have not one level of the ability of The Shepherd. Yet, the sheep are not to huddle away and form their own flocks with their own leaders because those sheep without shepherds are prone to wolves (from J Smith to Ellen G White to the Taize movement etc).

The focus is to be always on The Shepherd, not on the sub-shepherds/pastors

this is related to the pastoral functions and teachings of Christ. We are not like the Northern tribes who broke away. No, the tribe of Judah stayed irrespective of the bad kings because their focus was on God. Kings, High priests, priests may come and go, but God remains and one focuses on God, not on the frail tools.

You can of course, leave your group (I remember that your group says that people like the Apostles etc. were not blessed as they saw Christ) and become Christian. Do note that I am not a member of the RavingCalvinistCult and I'm in the Church that not only follows God's Word but lives it during the Mass

Nearly everything we say at mass has its roots in Sacred Scripture
Right from the priest's greeting In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)

through to the pentitential rite

I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. (Jas. 5:16) In my thoughts and in my words, (Rom. 12:16) In what I have done and what I have failed to do; (Jas 3:6) and I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the angel and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. (1 Thess 5:25)

and of course the readings from the OT, NT, right through to the profession of faith

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19) of all that is seen and unseen. (Col 1:16) We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, (Luke 1:35) eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father. (Heb 1:3) Through him all things were made. (John 1:2-3) For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: (John 3:13) by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:16) he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3-4) He ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1) and his kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33) We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 14:16) With the Father and Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11) We believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38) We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen

And ending with Thanks be to God. (2 Cor 9:15)

[Cronos]

“They will return to the faith of their father Abraham” —> TC, can you clarify what you mean by this? I think the Jews are following the faith of their father Abraham, just that they have not acknowledged the Messiah.

[presently no screen name]

Cronos, it’s not only to be READ but OBEYED. Do you think the RCC is obeying God’s Word?

[Cronos]

No, the RavingCalvinistCult is not obeying God's Word -- thank you for your statement about Calvinism

In the Catholic Church, on the other hand, the focus during worship is alwasy on The Good shepherd, Christ. We do not focus on the pastor who is but a sub-shepherd who have not one level of the ability of The Shepherd. Yet, the sheep are not to huddle away and form their own flocks with their own leaders because those sheep without shepherds are prone to wolves (from J Smith to Ellen G White to the Taize movement etc).

In the Church we stay true to and obey the Word of God. It's good you brought up the point of obedience. That is very key.

[presently no screen name]

You are so concerned about others along w/pointing fingers. It’s so liberal. Go lean your own church out unless it’s too overwhelming for you. Pointing fingers isn’t turning to God.

[Cronos]

Actually, if you notice, you are the one pointing fingers such as asking if Calvinists are obeying God’s Word or accusations labeling the 98%+ of pastors as molesters.

It’s so liberal. Pointing fingers isn’t turning to God.

[presently no screen name]

if you notice, you are the one pointing fingers such as asking if Calvinists are obeying God’s Word or accusations labeling the 98%+ of pastors as molesters.

Post back to me my exact words where I said what you are accusing me of. NOW!

[Cronos]

In the Old Testament, 1 Samuel 15:22 says, "Obedience is better than sacrifice."

From the new
John 3:36 36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 John 2:3-6 3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Ephesians chapters 1, 4, and 5 speak of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, of which Jesus is the head. He is the bridegroom of the Church

Don't be so concerned about others along w/pointing fingers. It’s so liberal.

Go find out about your own group unless it’s too overwhelming for you. Pointing fingers isn’t turning to God.

[Cronos]

Also, to summarise post 1260, though it would be better for all to actually read it

• 250 out of 47,000 priests in the US were dismissed (not all due to abuse). This is 0.53% of all current priests. Many allegations are against dead priests, hence the % goes below 0.5%
• In the Chicago diocese, out of 2,252 priests who had served from 1951 to 1991, allegations of sexual abuse had been made against 59 of them, or 2.6 percent.
• by taking any allegation that had any proof, the number of allegations that had any leg to stand on was 41 probable offenders priests, or 1.8 percent of all priests
• A recent study conducted in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania showed a 1.7 percent figure of priestly sexual abuse involving minors
• This is less than the 4% paedophiles in society at large
• This is less than the 2-3 % of Protestant (various groups) pastors convicted.
• All of this indicates that 1.7/1.8% were bad and dismissed and may they rot in hell yet you cannot label the remaining 98% as bad for these.

[Cronos]

Sure, post 1263 for the first and posts 1242 and 1247 for the second

[Cronos]

Sure, post 1263 for the first and posts 1242 and 1247 for the second. As one said You are so concerned about others along w/pointing fingers. It’s so liberal. Go clean your own group out unless it’s too overwhelming for you. Pointing fingers isn’t turning to God.

[Cronos]

Here's some more fabulous sermons from the Lutheran Holy Trinity Church

Lamb of God means substitute, stand-in, His life’s blood exchanged for yours. We heard it last week at the Baptism of Jesus. Standing in solidarity with sinners Jesus was baptized as a sinner though He knew no sin. He trades places with us. He becomes Sin so that we might become His righteousness.

The idea of blood sacrifice seems almost barbaric to our ears. The notion that an animal had to be bled to death for a person to be right with God is offensive to many. You certainly couldn’t say that not animals were harmed in the making of the old testament. The history of Israel and the temple is soaked in sacrificial blood. And the only reason it doesn’t continue, the only reason the church offers no bloody sacrifice is this Lamb of God whose blood cleanses us from all sin.

C.S. Lewis, the Christian apologist, once described religions as either “clear” or “thick.” Clear religions were religions of the mind and the spirit. They were etherial, theoretical, intellectual, individual. They involved prayer and meditation. Thick religions, on the other hand, were religions of the body. They involved ritual and sacrifice. They were earthy and bloody. He noted that Christianity is rather uniquely both. It can be as cerebral and meditative as Buddhism and at the same time it is as earthy and physical as a tribesman offering the blood of a goat on an altar.

This is why Christians rally around a crucifix rather than a plain cross. The symbol of a cross is not a uniquely Christian symbol. Medical aid comes with a “red cross.” We put crosses on the side of the road when there is an accident, or we use crosses to mark graves even when the person buried there isn’t Christian. Entertainers wear crosses as part of their bling. But put a corpus on the cross and it immediately and unmistakably becomes a symbol of Christianity. The highest symbol. Behold the Lamb of God. See Him on the cross and contemplate His wounds that are your healing. We glory in a death and a blood because this death brings life and this blood brings healing and forgiveness. This Lamb comes with a cross because that’s what lambs are for - they die for the sins of others

....Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Not sins. Sin. He deals with the condition. He goes for the source. He doesn’t simply take up our sins, He becomes the Sinner. Jesus becomes Sin for us - the blasphemer, the murderer, the adulterer, the thief, the liar, the cheat, the gossip. He becomes Sin in order to put Sin to death in our flesh, in His flesh. This innocent, spotless, sinless Lamb of God takes up our sin. He is the cure, the medicine, the antidote. The sting of Death is Sin. He took the sting, He absorbed its venom - the Law that kills us. He died with it. It killed Him and in dying, He conquered Sin...

and

The first unique thing about Jesus happens at His baptism in the Jordan. Before He does a miracle, before He preaches His first sermon, before He does anything to remotely suggest who He is, He is baptized. And in His baptism, the Father and the Spirit bear witness and testify that this Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

How do you react when you hear the word “Repent”? What goes through your mind? What if I were to stand here and say to you, “Repent, you sinners and flee from God’s wrath!” Our first reaction is typically, “Repent of what? What did I do?” Or we begin to flash our religious cards. “Hey, I’m a Christian. I’m a believer. I go to church every Sunday. I pray.” Or we deflect the attention to others. “It’s those sinners out there in the world. They need to repent. Don’t talk to me about repentance.”

In Jesus’ baptism, we get a snapshot of our own Baptism as well, albeit the reverse image. In Baptism, all righteousness is fulfilled in you, not because of what you do, but because of what Jesus has done for you. You are reborn a sinless saint in Him. You are clothed with Him. You are covered with His righteousness. Your sins in thought, in word, in deed which all deserve God’s condemnation have been washed away.....

[presently no screen name]

Actually, if you notice, you are the one pointing fingers such as asking if Calvinists are obeying God’s Word or accusations labeling the 98%+ of pastors as molesters.

Post back to me my exact words where I said what you are accusing me of. NOW!

YOU:Sure, post 1263 for the first and posts 1242 and 1247 for the second

Here they are - show me where I mention what you are accusing me of .. if you notice, you are the one pointing fingers such as asking if Calvinists are obeying God’s Word or accusations labeling the 98%+ of pastors as molesters IN THESE POSTS

#1263 Cronos, it’s not only to be READ but OBEYED. Do you think the RCC is obeying God’s Word?

#1242Now that is not complicated to understand. I don't see where it says 'because if there is a bad priest etc. we are to look beyond the faulty human tool and focus on God.”. IT SAYS REMOVE THEM.

#1247But they have been around for sooooooo long - supposedly all their church fathers had all the answers for a universal church and what to do about homosexuality stumps them? Bring in a 3rd grader, and the answer would be ‘remove them’.

[Cronos]

"Scripture teaches that the coming of Christ will be sudden and unexpected, especially to unbelievers. This is the teaching of Paul in I Thess. 5:1-10. But to say that it will be sudden and unexpected is not to say that it will be secret."

correct -- we will not know, it could be tomorrow.

ok, now my questions --> caveat: note: these are just questions, I have no opinion either way on this, I just want to know both sides' answers to decide for myself

Why does the rapture have to be "secret"? Does it have to be secret? Is it even possible for this to be secret? Come on, wouldn't people notice if a large number of folks just disappeared? Isn't a secret contrary to I Thessalonians 4:16?

more frivolously -- why does the anti-Christ have to be Romanian? I gotta tell my Romanian friends about this, they're already tickled pink by the stories made about their national hero Vlad Țepeș

[Cronos]

1263 --> as asking if Calvinists are obeying God’s Word

1242, 1247 --> accusations labeling the 98%+ of pastors as molesters.

[Cronos]

Now labeling the 98%+ of pastors as molesters is completely inaccurate. Especially as I pointed out
to summarise post 1260, though it would be better for all to actually read it

• 250 out of 47,000 priests in the US were dismissed (not all due to abuse). This is 0.53% of all current priests. Many allegations are against dead priests, hence the % goes below 0.5%
• In the Chicago diocese, out of 2,252 priests who had served from 1951 to 1991, allegations of sexual abuse had been made against 59 of them, or 2.6 percent.
• by taking any allegation that had any proof, the number of allegations that had any leg to stand on was 41 probable offenders priests, or 1.8 percent of all priests
• A recent study conducted in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania showed a 1.7 percent figure of priestly sexual abuse involving minors
• This is less than the 4% paedophiles in society at large
• This is less than the 2-3 % of Protestant (various groups) pastors convicted.
• All of this indicates that 1.7/1.8% were bad and dismissed and may they rot in hell yet you cannot label the remaining 98% as bad for these.

[Cronos]

So, to conclude, it's not good to be always pointing fingers at the Church when there are a lot of errors and sinners in non-Church groups.

It’s so liberal to be always pointing fingers -- the liberals like to attack The Church as it's a good anti-Christian target for them.

Go clean your own group out unless it’s too overwhelming for you. Pointing fingers isn’t turning to God.

[presently no screen name]

So you can’t show me because it isn’t true.

YOU deliberately are accusing me of something that you know isn’t true - almost, itching for me to call you a liar! Aren’t you? That’s your game. How much angst can you cause here and how far you can push the envelope.

Let’s see where that gets you. You seem to take kindness for weakness. You are on ignore for the rest of my stay here.

[Cronos]

Oh, that's jolly fine by me, thank you. If I do note, you initiated this with post 1242 addressed to me, commenting on my discussion with metmom.

So, if you wish to stop wasting my time, that's perfectly super.

[Judith Anne]

First catholic church I entered had a Priest who had his own private male concubine. The laity knew it...and the Priest knew they knew. The kid was a troubled kid the Priest took under his belt, in more ways than one. I asked why nobody said anything about this, (I wasn’t even a Christen then.) I was told these stinging words..” We just accept this is how it is, he (the Priest) is truly loved here and no one can imagine him not being our Priest, the kid is better off with the Priest than on his own”. The year was 1987.... I was in that community 7 yrs. and watched that kid grow to be a damaged young man.

One of the things I've learned to totally ignore is the prevalence of anecdotes on these threads. "I knew a priest who..." "I know Catholics who..." "My Catholic relatives all..." "I work with Catholics who..."

I could tell you tale after tale of protestant misdeeds, and I don't, because being protestant has NOTHING to do with their homosexuality, their thieving, their adultery, their addiction to crack -- anything.

But SOMEHOW, when a Catholic misbehaves, it is the fault of the Church. And you (plural) wonder why we take things personally, why we are so "thin-skinned" why we get irritated with all y'all. We say that insulting the Church is insulting Catholics, because YOU MAKE IT SO.

The other interesting thing is that people who criticize the Catholic Church, and thus all Catholics, NEVER give their own confession. You (plural) don't do this because you KNOW that there are no perfect people in your church, but without identifying your church, nobody can point to a specific instance THE WAY YOU CAN WHEN IT IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

The last thing is that when you (plural) say that Catholics believe thus and so, and we say, no we don't, the Catechism says yada yada, you say, "Well I knew a Catholic who..." or "All the Catholics in the church I was forced to attend when I was growing up...." yada yada, as if that is supposed to somehow disprove the Catechism.

If any of the solas made you (plural) proddies better Christians, you (plural) might deserve a better look. As far as I can see, all of you are just as fallible as ANY Catholic. And anyone who will criticize the Catholic Church without holding up their own church for comparison is a dirty yellow coward.