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To: Natural Law; metmom
Are you denying that Pope Pius X signed the the Lateran Treaty with Mussolini that gave him and his sucessors 110 acres of Vatican City, without which Pius XII would have no sovereign authority?

Is that a lie?

"A political treaty recognising the full sovereignty of the Holy See in the State of Vatican City, which was thereby established."

Magic, myth, fables, miracles and voices in your head are the stuff of religion.

Signed Treaties are fact, they are realty - which apparently is anathema to you.

262 posted on 01/03/2011 6:47:11 PM PST by Cardhu
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To: Cardhu
"Is that a lie?"

Your statement that Pope Pius XII was a friend of Hitler was an absolute, bald faced lie. Further the treaty was not an agreement between Moussolini and the Pope, it was an agreement between two governments. It was signed for King Victor Emmanuel III of Italy by Benito Mussolini, then Prime Minister of Italy and for Pope Pius XI by Pietro Gasparri, Cardinal Secretary of State. It was not a favor by Moussolini and the Pope was in no way beholden.

Your contention that my position and the Catholic position on the permanency of that baptism is somehow provisional is also a lie. A baptism cannot be undone, and the heresy that once saved always saved does not apply. Many, including Hitler have willingly forfeited their Salvation following Baptism.

286 posted on 01/03/2011 7:20:29 PM PST by Natural Law (In Hoc Signo Vinces)
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To: Cardhu

Are you denying that Pope Pius X signed the the Lateran Treaty with Mussolini that gave him and his sucessors 110 acres of Vatican City, without which Pius XII would have no sovereign authority?
Is that a lie?


As a matter of fact, yes, though we might politely say that there is a profound failure to fully grasp historical facts. Pius X died in 1914, well before Mussolini came to power. The 1929 treaty that Pius XI signed allowed the popes to continue to exercise the temporal sovereignty that they had been exercising officially since the time of Charlamagne and practically since the time of Gregory the Great. The Pope had been clearly soverein before the Italian revolution, the Papal States never surrendered, and Leo XIII, Pius X, Benedict XV, and Pius XI up through the treaty acted as sovereigns under siege, never leaving the small area that they actually controlled—never having surrendered sovereignty, they did not need to have it bestowed, though when you are completely surrounded, it is helpful to have it recognized.


292 posted on 01/03/2011 7:31:15 PM PST by Hieronymus (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton)
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