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Was Oliver Cromwell - founder of the British empire - the greatest ever Englishman?
The Daily Mail UK ^ | 1st January 2011 | Dominic Sandbrook

Posted on 12/31/2010 10:16:57 PM PST by Alex Murphy

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To: familyop; Sparky1776

It’s no surprise that 1.6% were Catholics. Actually it’s amazing there were that many.

I went to the link posted by sparky1776 and had a real education:

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1964/1/1964_1_26.shtml

I had no idea that England was tracking down people here in the colonies. I now have a new appreciation for the concept of religious freedom after going to that link.

Every once in a while I learn something here that is exceptional. Thanks Sparky.


101 posted on 01/01/2011 6:05:28 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: Sparky1776; ladyjane

Oops. From the first federal census of 1790, Catholics comprised only about 6/10ths of a percent (0.6%) of the population of the thirteen original colonies (about 25,000 out of 3,939,000).


102 posted on 01/01/2011 6:18:54 PM PST by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt), NG, '89-' 96, Duncan Hunter or no-vote.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Churchill is the greatest Englishman, hands down.


103 posted on 01/01/2011 6:21:07 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: bkepley
Without Marlborough, there would have been no Churchill.

Besides Churchill, I would rank Newton, William Pitt the Elder, Henry II, Edward I, Nelson, Wellington, Thomas More and Shakespeare ahead of Cromwell.

104 posted on 01/01/2011 6:28:09 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: familyop

How can they tell how many Catholics there were from the census? It didn’t ask about religion. The 1790 census is incompletely preserved (some states’ returns are missing, probably as a result of the burning of Washington in 1814), and before 1850 only heads of households were listed.


105 posted on 01/01/2011 6:31:22 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: RFEngineer; achilles2000

Boy are you two correct about this.


106 posted on 01/01/2011 6:32:03 PM PST by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: Verginius Rufus

The number, 25,000 (Catholics), is from John Carroll (bishop), 1785.

First federal census:

http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/decennial/1790.html

...or a little more or less from any one of many returns from a search.


107 posted on 01/01/2011 6:47:06 PM PST by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt), NG, '89-' 96, Duncan Hunter or no-vote.)
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To: Verginius Rufus
"The six inquiries in 1790 called for the name of the head of the family and the number of persons in each household..." (Census Bureau).


108 posted on 01/01/2011 6:52:54 PM PST by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt), NG, '89-' 96, Duncan Hunter or no-vote.)
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To: familyop
The original records for Virginia are lost--what they did was compile lists of names taken from tax records from the 1780s, which may not be as complete (and do not break down the white and black persons in each household into different categories based on age and sex). If I remember correctly there were some counties where they couldn't find any usable tax records. I think there are some other states where they had to resort to the same strategy in order to have anything at all.

Bishop Carroll's figure is from 5 years earlier and is presumably just a guess (although he would be better placed to make a guess than anyone else).

109 posted on 01/01/2011 7:11:49 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: ladyjane; Sparky1776
"It’s no surprise that 1.6% were Catholics. Actually it’s amazing there were that many."

Then I found information indicating the possibility of about 0.6%. ...close enough.

"I went to the link posted by sparky1776 and had a real education:"

"http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1964/1/1964_1_26.shtml"

"I had no idea that England was tracking down people here in the colonies. I now have a new appreciation for the concept of religious freedom after going to that link."

I very much agree that early rejection of religious uniformity was most important, and that we have a great Constitution.

I first learned about religion in early America from Mrs. Wilson (my American History instructor at the University) and later found that my first known American ancestor with my surname landed in America in 1669. It was also one of the surnames given to the English after 1066 (Norman Invasion). It's possible that he was neither Catholic nor Protestant (even though having been with Huguenots), but he joined the Dutch Reformed Church sometime after arriving.

That said, I'm not emotionally involved in the matter. But the various reasons settlers had for coming to America are very interesting. So are recent trends in religion, business and politics.


110 posted on 01/01/2011 7:15:46 PM PST by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt), NG, '89-' 96, Duncan Hunter or no-vote.)
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To: zot

Cromwell ping.


111 posted on 01/01/2011 7:19:16 PM PST by Interesting Times (WinterSoldier.com. SwiftVets.com. ToSetTheRecordStraight.com.)
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To: Sparky1776
Good point considering the personal connection between Cromwell & Roger Williams

Cromwell's model of forceful dispossession of land and killing of the holy men, "perfected" in Ireland, became the model for the westward movement of the murderous English.

You need look no further than the looting, burning, murder and kidnap accomplished by John Endicott (an affiliate of Williams, both of whom were students of Coke) on Block Island at the beginning of the Pequot War, a task that would later win Endicott the Massachusetts Bay Colony Governorship. Thus, it seems no coincidence that upon his later return to England in 1643, during the English Civil War, that Roger Williams secured a charter, calling his settlement "Providence Plantation." cf "Plantation" in Ireland.

Likewise, the sistered notion that only some were permittted the rights of "Englishmen" took firm and evil root in 1643 when the United Colonies accepted slavery (Setting the stage much later for the mass enslavement of Africans). Clearly, the views of Williams did not prevail at this time, in that Pequots and others had been captured and sold into slavery to the West Indies for more than a decade, a practice that no doubt that led to the bording of John Oldham's ship in Block Island and the killing of him and his crew. With the Pequots out of the way, the drive to the west begins.

One may only ask who were the savages.

112 posted on 01/02/2011 7:05:42 AM PST by frithguild (The Democrat Party Brand - Big Government protecting Entrenched Interests from Competition)
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To: Interesting Times; GreyFriar

Thanks for the ping. This is an excellent article. As it points out, Cromwell was a great man, and he is justly called the founder of the British Empire. I believe he was (and is) unjustly hated.


113 posted on 01/02/2011 6:57:54 PM PST by zot
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To: reg45

You got me there. How one forgets history.

I have a French name, an Irishman through descent tho.

No love for the blue painted chalk eating peoples.


114 posted on 01/02/2011 10:35:59 PM PST by mmercier (one last time to kill the pain)
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To: familyop

Maryland, if I recall correctly, was founded by Lord Baltimore as a colony for Roman Catholics.


115 posted on 01/03/2011 5:24:28 PM PST by reg45
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To: Darren McCarty

Cromwell’s Irish campaign was terrible. But it was no worse than what Hapsburg armies did to Protestant towns and cities in Germany.


116 posted on 01/03/2011 7:36:15 PM PST by rmlew (You want change? Vote for the most conservative electable in your state or district.)
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