Praying to the Saints - Why do Catholics Venerate the Saints?

Catholic.com ^

[NYer]

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.

 

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

 

One Mediator

Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

 

"No Contact with the dead"

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

 

Overlooking the Obvious

Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:

"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?

"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.

"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).

If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.

 

"Directly to Jesus"

Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.

The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

 

In Heaven and On Earth

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

[johngrace]

Hi Rmom- You know it means honor= venerate. Not worship. If you truly do not get it. You just do not get it do you. It's always through the Holy Spirit. In Him through Him in the Unity of The Holy Spirit. The difference as you probably know from being on these threads by others who explained it to you. It's all about praying for others and asking pray from saints(Us) here and in heaven.

If you can't see it. You just do not understand. Everything in these saint prayers that are shown are always in the context of the Saints capacity for intercessory prayer. Even if it does not appear to your understanding. They are never meant in any other way. Oh you could say what you want.

If I ask for a pray for my family and have a friend pray with results. I might say to that person thanks you saved me. It does not mean they saved me. But the power of faith in pray to Christ is the ultimate cause. He does share the burden of the gospel with the saints here and in heaven for pray. He left the earth in our hands. God is a very "big boy" in thought to know the difference. I have no doubt.

I believe you are too legalistic in this mute point towards God. If you still do not understand. What can I say but I will always pray for you. Which is in Him(Jesus) with HIM (Jesus) in the Unity of the Holy Spirit.

Praise Jesus and as the Angel declared Hail Mary!

[RnMomof7]

Clearly, the example of Abigail shows that the difference between veneration and worship is in the heart, NOT in the externals. God sees the heart, He knows. If someone says, “for me, it is veneration, not worship,” then who except God needs to be concerned about it?

How is it different in the heart? How does God KNOW that you are worshiping Him and not Mary when he hears your prayers or watches your actions? How do YOU know the difference?

[jagusafr]

For goodness’ sake, don’t ask your DS or bishop the Methodist questions! Read a biography on John Wesley or check out the Renewal Movement websites. His 52 points of Methodism are also very instructive.

Colonel, USAFR

[RnMomof7]

I asked a very specific question, not a definition (which by the way veneration is a definition for worship) but how prayers of veneration differ from prayers of worship...How the way you show honor differs from the way you show worship.

If you were to teach your children how to worship and then how to venerate..how would they differ?

[RnMomof7]

I asked a very specific question, not a definition (which by the way veneration is a definition for worship) but how prayers of veneration differ from prayers of worship...How the way you show honor differs from the way you show worship.

If you were to teach your children how to worship and then how to venerate..how would they differ?

[conservonator]

If you were to teach your children how to worship and then how to venerate..how would they differ?

Are you having a hard time differentiating between the love you have for God and the love you have for your children? If you don't differentiate, you need to really get back to basics, but if you do than you're only an intellectually honest moment away from understanding how veneration and worship differ in practice. But if you still have some sort of difficulty with the concept try this: We adore and give all glory and honor to He who is author and creator of all, we venerate those who by example help us too to better glorify Him who is our all.

My kids get it. It's only a difficult concept for those who wish not to see or know. The Trinity is a way more subtle and sublime concept yet you haven't asked how we explain that to our kids. Wonder why...

[Mrs. Don-o]

Hello, RnMomo7, on to your latest question:

Here's how I would explain to children the difference between "worship" and "veneration":

If you worship, you give supreme honor to God, which is due Him as the uncreated, infinite and eternal source of every good thing.

If you venerate, you give a lesser honor to the things and people God made; they receive the goodness they have by the unmerited gift of Him who created all things.

If these children were middle-school level or older, I would explain how St. Augustine (City of God) distinguishes two kinds of honor: "one which is due to men . . . which in Greek is called dulia; the other, latria, which is the service pertaining to the worship of God". There is a third term, hyperdulia, which simply means "highest honor," which we give to Mary since she was most highly honored by God ("Kecharitomene" as the Angel Gabriel said.)

I would use examples of how holy objects were venerated in the Old Testament, e.g. the Ark of the Covenant. Children can grasp 1 Chronicles 15-16 about the veneration the Jewish People showed for the Ark: carrying it in processions, shouts of acclamation, dancing before it, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets; and people were not even supposed to touch the Ark, lest they die.

These were outward signs of veneration for an object (Ark) which was glorious because of its close association with God, Who alone is worthy of supreme adoration. Things and people can be treated with signs of reverence and called "holy" only inasmuch as they are associated with God: as used in the Old Testament, "holy" ground, "holy" convocation, "holy" habitation, "holy" Sabbath, "holy" nation, (you could find many more examples with a good Bible search engine) --- and terms we are more familiar with: "holy" Bible, "holy" Cross, "holy" Angels.

This is what I learned before I was Confirmed. As I remember it (a long time ago!) we 13-year-olds did not find this beyond our grasp.

Somewhat later I became aware that there can be cross-cultural misunderstandings --- for instance, the Chinese Rites controversy (Link) of the early 18th century--- which I know a bit about because I'm a huge fan of Matteo Ricci. Cross-cultural misunderstandings often explain how uninformed people can misinterpret outward signs of respect.

Would you like more about that?

I hope this has been helpful.

[RnMomof7]

No I am not having a hard time..but apparently Catholics can not tell the difference in practice between veneration and worship..

I love my Husband and my children BUT my husband has intimacy with me that my children do not have, that is clear and definable and can be seen by others .

I am asking HOW veneration differs from worship So far all I get is platitudes no clear difference..

You say your kids get it..but how do you really KNOW that ? What do you see in their veneration of saints that differs in their worship of God..or is that only an assumption on your part? How did you teach them the difference?

[shurwouldluv_a_smallergov]

I replied to a similar question you asked on a recent thread about Mary. I do not believe you ever responded to my post, perhaps you did not see it. Since you are asking the same question here, I will repost it:

If you used to be Catholic, you should understand that Catholics consider the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as THE supreme act of worship, as it is the eternal sacrifice of Jesus Christ offering Himself to the Father.
We do not believe that Jesus is dying again, or continually dying, He died once- but continually offers Himself to the Father. For that brief moment for us in time at Mass, we get to take part in that sacrifice, and offer ourselves, along with Jesus, to the Father. We worship God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as our Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier.

We receive Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. I could go on and on, in my limited and feeble way, but hopefully you get the idea.

Until recently I did not know that non-Catholics believe that once you die and your soul is separated from your body, you are... what, unconscious? asleep? Out of commission?

Catholics do not share that belief. We believe in the “communion of saints”; the Church Militant (we on earth), the Church Suffering (those in purgatory), and the Church Triumphant (those in heaven). We are a family, and believe God is very big on families, as God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is the first family. The Church Triumphant can help us by praying for us, just as family members here on earth help each other.

Mary holds a special place because she was the Mother of Jesus (God) and always said yes to God. She is the mother of the Holy Family, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, and our spiritual mother. She is anxious to help us, still struggling here on earth; as is all of heaven. We ask our heavenly family to pray for us.

At any rate, that was my post to you on the other thread. Others both on that thread and this one have mentioned the Mass but you do not seem to want acknowledge it- as a former Catholic, what was your understanding of the Mass?

[RnMomof7]

You have given a dictionary definition to your children..I am asking how you would teach them to worship God and venerate the saints in practice.. ??

The examples are good, but they do not tell the children HOW to be careful not to worship a saint or just venerate God.

[RnMomof7]

That really is not an answer to my question..is the only time you worship God at mass? If not how does your practice if veneration DIFFER from your practice of worship

[shurwouldluv_a_smallergov]

I can worship God anywhere at any time, but the SUPREME ACT of worship is the Mass- any worship I might do on my own-

songs of praise, prayer, scripture reading- it all PALES IN COMPARISON.

Because the Mass is something Christ is doing, not me.

You did not answer my question! What was your understanding of the Mass?

[conservonator]

I am asking HOW veneration differs from worship So far all I get is platitudes no clear difference..

I just told you how, your refusal to acknowledge the fact doesn't negate the fact. Here it is again in a nut shell: worship or an is for the Creator, veneration is for the created. Now what you didn't ask, at least not this time, is the more important question: what is worship what is veneration and how do they differ. You seem stuck on the material aspect of differentiation.

I love my Husband and my children BUT my husband has intimacy with me that my children do not have, that is clear and definable and can be seen by others .

What a horrible answer; you totally misrepresented the question. I didn't ask about how you differentiate between love of husband and love of children, I asked how you differentiate, love of God and love of "man" for a lack of a better term. And as an addendum, why do you differentiate?

You say your kids get it..but how do you really KNOW that ? What do you see in their veneration of saints that differs in their worship of God..or is that only an assumption on your part? How did you teach them the difference?

I know because I taught them so they have no defective understanding of either concept. They know that their entire being is given over to the Lord and that the saints show the way. Only the spiritually blind, which apparently includes ex Catholic Calvinists, can't see this. Maybe you need to be more childlike in your faith.

[Running On Empty]

You and Mrs. Don-o are indicating (to me) that you have considerable forbearance with RnM’s interrogation-style questioning——a style which seems more like a methodology than a message to me.

Getting relentlessly pursued with questions, which give me the impression that they demand immediate and “acceptable” answers, is easily a big turn-off for me, and I wouldn’t be surprised if I weren’t the only one.

I agree with a comment by johngrace—post # 121-—to RnM: “I believe you are too legalistic....”

So, Mrs. D. and s_m_v, keep up your kind forbearance and question-answering.

:-)

[Running On Empty]

Thanks for this post.

[Running On Empty]

ping

[Judith Anne]

/God is omniscient. How He knows something is above all our pay grades.

[Running On Empty]

Very good :-)

[what's up]

They are in bliss. Why would they have anything more to do with a sin-laden world?

Only Christ is our Savior, Mediator and Lord. Look to Him and don't get distracted.

[Mrs. Don-o]

First of all, thank you for saying my examples were good. Maybe we're making some progress after all!

Forgive me if I have not caught on to what it is you're getting at. It seems you want differences conveyed without words and definitions. Is that it? This puts me at rather a disadvantage.

Do you mean mystical experience? I don't think I have ever had a mystical experience, properly so called; but it's said to be inexpressible in words. That leaves me --- speechless :o/

If we were dealing with a young child, we would have to correct the child verbally if it said something like "I adore Mary the Creator." But what is your objection about just saying straight out, "Hey, my dear, God is the Creator. Mary is a creature. We do not adore her"?

Or maybe I could give the kid a look like this:

But OK, you're a mother. So, to take a Biblical example, how would YOU explain to a child, without words, HOW to be careful not to worship the Ark of the Covenant, or just venerate God?