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To: Deo volente
Your apologism for Catholic mariolatry is quite staunch.

But I'll try to make it to Heaven without sinful Mary's help.

Christ is sufficient for me; I need no other, and neither does any other human being, IMHO.

Have a nice day.

210 posted on 12/19/2010 2:45:58 PM PST by sargon (I don't like the sound of these "boncentration bamps")
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To: sargon
Christ is sufficient for me; I need no other, and neither does any other human being, IMHO.

God saves whom He will. We do not need each other, we do not need the Body of Christ. We do not need communion with the saints. We do not need to bless each other, we do not need to pray for each other. We do not need... Church.

I see often a kind of minimalism in Protestantism - what is the least.. ?

However, there are other ways of looking at all that it means to be part of the Body of Christ. One is as a gift. Another is as compassion. Another is as helping each other and realizing that what one member of Christ's body does affects the whole body; how we treat each other, how we know and honor and pray for each other... all this is part of being One. And we cannot escape this, any more than we can escape the fact that what we do affects those who love us.

211 posted on 12/19/2010 2:58:36 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: sargon; narses

It’s not “mariolatry” and it’s not just Catholic.

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_perpetual_virgin.htm

Martin Luther on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

{Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

“Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”

{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }

“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .”

{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }

“Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .

When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }

Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.

{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}

John Calvin on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

“Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”

{Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

[On Matt 1:25:] “The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.”

{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}

“Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.”

{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

Huldreich Zwingli

He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - ‘Hail Mary’ . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .

‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.

{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}

Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’

{Thurian, ibid., p.76}

“I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.”

{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}

Heinrich Bullinger

Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary’s perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: ‘In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.’ She is ‘the most unique and the noblest member’ of the Christian community . . .

‘The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.’

{In Hilda Graef, Mary: A history of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965, vol.2, pp.14-5}

John Wesley (Founder of Methodism)

“The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”

{”Letter to a Roman Catholic” / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25}


212 posted on 12/19/2010 2:59:38 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: sargon

Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
behold us prostrate in Thy divine presence.
We humble ourselves profoundly
and beg of Thee the forgiveness of our sins.

I.

We adore Thee, Almighty Father,
and with hearts overflowing
we thank Thee that Thou hast given us
Thy Divine Son Jesus to be our Redeemer,
and that He hath bequeathed Himself to us
in the most august Eucharist
even to the end of the world,
revealing unto us the wondrous love of His Heart
in this mystery of faith and love.

Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Ghost.
As it was in the beginning,
is now,
and ever shall be,
world without end.

Amen.

II.

O Word of God,
dear Jesus our Redeemer,
we adore Thee and with hearts over-flowing
we thank Thee for having taken human flesh upon Thee
and become for our redemption both Priest and Victim
in the sacrifice of the Cross,
a sacrifice which,
through the exceeding love of Thy Sacred Heart,
Thou dost renew upon our altars at every moment.
O High Priest,
O Divine Victim,
give us the grace to honour Thy holy sacrifice
in the most adorable Eucharist
with the homage of Mary most holy
and of all Thy holy Church,
triumphant, suffering and militant.
We offer ourselves wholly to Thee;
of Thine infinite goodness and mercy
do Thou accept our offering,
unite it to Thine own
and grant us Thy blessing.

Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Ghost.
As it was in the beginning,
is now,
and ever shall be,
world without end.

Amen.

III.

O Divine Spirit the Paraclete,
we adore Thee and with hearts overflowing
we give Thee thanks that Thou hast,
with such great love for us,
wrought the ineffable blessing
of the Incarnation of the Word of God,
a blessing which is being continually extended
and enlarged in the most august Sacrament of the Eucharist.
Ah, by this adorable mystery of the love of the Sacred Heart of Jesus,
do Thou grant unto us and all poor sinners Thy holy grace.
Pour forth Thy holy gifts upon us
and upon all redeemed souls,
and in an especial manner upon the visible Head of the Church,
the supreme Roman Pontiff,
upon all Cardinals,
Bishops and Pastors of souls,
upon priests and all other ministers of Thy sanctuary.

Amen.

Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Ghost.
As it was in the beginning,
is now,
and ever shall be,
world without end.

Amen.


214 posted on 12/19/2010 3:12:44 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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