The Panakranta, also known as Kyriotissa, Queen of Heaven, She Who Reigns in Majesty
Posted on 12/18/2010 6:01:48 PM PST by Gamecock
nothing recorded as such in scripture.
Sola scriptura aside, Christ as King and Mary as his mother and mothers of Kings... I don't believe that is a big matter of scriptural dispute.
He gave Mary the privledge of being His mother...but more importantly that He came from the Father
It takes both to have the Incarnation. According to the creeds, Christ is both fully man and full God. I think to try to separate and weight portions out of the Incarnation is the way of heresy.
Thanks for your reply.
Regardless...Mary is not a Queen of Heaven. But we certainly do have a King Jesus who will one day make his Royal apperance...of which I see nothing of Mary coming along with...she is not mentioned very often throughout the scriptures...and thank God this is so...look what’s happened in the catholic church concerning her with the little there is written...but then it is in the nature of man to form an Idol to worship when a heart is far from God...or leadership to do so in order to bind people to it’s organization.
RE: Can they say a Prayer centered on Christ Jesus apart from mentiong someone departed?
It never ceases to amaze me the level of theological ignorance and lack of intellectual rigor displayed by some folks who claim the mantle of Christian. Someone somewhere tells them that Catholics only pray to Mary and they lap it up like a bee on a nectar farm.
http://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/pr/prayers_and_hymns_Jesus.htm
I think this is at the root of much of the disagreement. I believe that for many Protestants there is only worship and.. nothing - on off. If one give honor to a religious figure, it's worship in this view. Giving a lot of honor is most certainly worsphip. I think a key to understanding is that for the Church we have the Mass, our worship. And it's clear it is for God alone, and it's clear who God is and the Saints we honor are not God. Without the Mass, how is this distinction in worship made clear? I think by not honoring or showing anything close to it to anyone or anything else - since with the Mass, the distinction of worship can only be made clear in other ways.
It's a difference of what is worship and what is an idol.
This strikes me as an example of what I meant by assigning a strictly functional value to Christ. What's not coming through is any adoration of Christ because of Who He is (He Who IS). If it's there, it's quite overshadowed by what He does -- for you, even if you politely add "every individual" -- though that at least sounds as if you're not a Calvinist (I have trouble keeping everyone straight).
I think you don't know what the worship of God is as we live and experience it. And you really won't get it from reading a digest of doctrinal teachings, any more than you can say you know a language because you've memorized a grammar book. You mention Catholics seeming to disagree with one another: Isn't that to be expected? We each have different backgrounds, educations, experiences, modes of expression. I think you'll find the same variety in an in-depth study of anything. You can keep going, or dismiss them as you might the blind men's account of the elephant.
And I think the biggest idol most people should worry about putting before God is the self. Of course, castigating other people's statues is as a good a distraction as any.
Her son is King, the mother of the king is...
it is in the nature of man to form an Idol to worship
What is worship; what is an idol?
Exactly!
RE: Can they say a Prayer centered on Christ Jesus apart from mentiong someone departed?
For your mercies’ sake, O Lord my God, tell me what you are to me. Say to my soul: “I am your salvation.” So speak that I may hear, O Lord; my heart is listening; open it that it may hear you, and say to my soul: “I am your salvation.” After hearing this word, may I come in haste to take hold of you. Hide not your face from me. Let me see your face even if I die, lest I die with longing to see it. The house of my soul is too small to receive you; let it be enlarged by uou. It is all in ruins; do you repair it. There are thing in it - I confess and I know - that must offend your sight. But who shall cleanse it? Or to what others besides you shall I cry out? From my secret sins cleanse me, O Lord, and from those of others spare your servant.
Amen.
Saint Augustine of Hippo
You claimed:
“And the point is they view Mary as more significant in the birth of Christ than the event that He has come.”
An absolute, objective falsehood. When you got called on that you shifted, in typical proddie style, to:
“What they might believe and what is actually spoken, written, and practiced are two different things.”
Now you are claiming to be able read minds?
:)
Pax et Bonum FRiend. Merry Christmas!
“Christ nor God records anything whatsoever making her Queen.”
Really? How odd. Is Our Lord Jesus Christ not King of Kings? What does that make His Mother?
“I believe that for many Protestants there is only worship and.. nothing - on off.”
Close. In most prod sects, prayer IS worship. They do not have any understanding of the various forms of prayer and worship that exist. Most are unstudied, and self satisfied. Their pride blinds them to a true study of the Faith even as they claim to profess it.
Actually, that was FReeper “sauropod” who wrote that, in the previous post, #116. Narses knows that Mary had no other children besides Jesus.
Thanks! I think sauropod might benefit from your observation as well.
“Especially as Jesus has a brother, James.”
Where were you during the last 789,654,485,334,565 rebuttals of that, right here on FR?
For Heaven’s sake, GET IT ALREADY.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9212fea2.asp
Christians who do not acknowledge Mary as their Queen are thus out of step with the vast majority of their fellow Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic. A true concern for ecumenism would lead them to join us in devotion to Mary—or at least to refrain from attacking her. The subtitle of the entire CRI article is: “From Lowly Handmaid to Queen of Heaven.”(Elliott Miller, “The Mary of Roman Catholicism,” Christian Research Journal, Summer 1990 and Fall 1990. In these notes the two parts are referred to as Part 1 and Part 2. The articles represent the position of the Christian Research Institute.) We are supposed to see an anomaly here: “How could a mere village girl, a lowly handmaid, ever become Queen of heaven?” The answer to this objection is in our Lord’s words of reproach to the Sadducees about another matter: “Are you not misled, because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God?” (Mark 12:24).
What Scripture says
Scripture is full of the promise that the lowly and poor will be raised to royal dignity: “From the ash-heap he lifts up the poor . . . to make a glorious throne their heritage” (1 Sam. 2:8); “You who have followed me will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matt. 19:28); “If we persevere, we shall also reign with him” (2 Tim. 2:12); “I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne, as I myself first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne” (Rev. 3:21). It would be unbiblical to deny this victory and share in Jesus’ royal Davidic throne to his Mother.
Jesus again said to his apostles, “It is you who have stood by me in my trials, and I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father has conferred one on me” (Luke 22:28-29). But who stood by him most faithfully? The apostles fled at Jesus’ arrest. Only one, the beloved disciple, dared to stand beneath the cross. But Mary stood by him there, and so he will confer the kingdom on her.
Christopher O’Donnell points out the remarkable parallel between Luke 1 and Philippians 2:5-11, between Jesus and Mary as examples of poverty and humility raised to unimaginable glory: “It is worth remarking that the great hymn of redemption in Philippians 2:5-11 finds echoes in the first chapter of St. Luke’s Gospel. Jesus took the form of a slave (Greek doulos, Phil. 2:7); Mary describes herself as a slave (Greek doule, Luke 1:38). Jesus humbled himself (Phil. 2:8); Mary describes her state as one of humiliation (Luke 1:48). God exalted Jesus (Phil. 2:9); the humble are exalted (Luke 1:52). Every knee shall bend...confess that Jesus is Lord (Phil. 2:11); all generations will call Mary blessed (Luke 1:48). The similarity of Greek expressions throughout seems to suggest deliberate borrowing by Luke to illustrate the mystery of poverty being exalted in both Son and mother....One can at least point to a common tradition to which Paul and Luke had access.”(Christopher O’Donnell, Life in the Spirit and Mary (Wilmington: Glazier, 1981), 45.)
Luther’s testimony
Every disciple will share Jesus’ royal dignity. But Mary is the first and holiest disciple, “full of grace” and first to believe in him (Luke 1:28,45). She is even—unimaginable dignity!—the very Mother of her Lord (1:43). This translates to Queen, if human language and divine revelation have any meaning at all. Although Martin Luther was somewhat nervous about applying the title “Queen of Heaven” to Mary, he admits that “it is a true enough name and yet does not make her a goddess.”(Luther’s Works, 21:327.) In a sermon Luther preached on July 2, 1532, the Feast of the Visitation, he said, “She, the Lady above heaven and earth, must...have a heart so humble that she might have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility! It would surely have been more just to have arranged for her a golden coach, pulled by 4,000 horses, and to cry and proclaim as the carriage proceeded: ‘Here passes the woman who is raised far above all women, indeed above the whole human race.’” Five years later, preaching on the same feast day, Luther said, “She was not filled with pride by this praise...this immense praise: ‘No woman is like unto thee! Thou art more than an empress or a queen...blessed above all nobility, wisdom, or saintliness!’”(Ibid., 36:208, 45:107.)
The Panakranta, also known as Kyriotissa, Queen of Heaven, She Who Reigns in Majesty
While you're here, do you know anything about Solrunn Nes and her book, The Mystical Language of Icons? I'm thinking of getting it.
You'd have to think that for over 1500 years that all the Church theologians, bishops, doctors of the Church, councils, etc. - didn't read or notice that scripture or others about the ever-Virgin.
If it's so obvious she wasn't, the Early, mid and late Church fathers must have been really ignorant of scripture.
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