Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
“They have the clear and unambiguous words of God in Scripture and yet they STILL believe a lie.”
You said so yourself. ‘Among those born of woman’. That is precisely what Christ says, and I have no intention of denying His statement.
“How long do you think it will be before Rome decides that Mary was not actually ‘born of a woman’ herself, but instead supernaturally conceived by a virgin...?”
What the immaculate conception teaches is that Mary was kept free from sin by the Power of Christ at her conception. Not her birth. Given the idiom, ‘born of woman’ to apply to a purely natural birth, I’d argue it doesn’t apply to Mary due to Christ’s intervention.
“I suppose we should brace ourselves for Mary’s mother to be declared a virgin her entire life...and her mother...and her mother...and...”
I am only surprised that it took so long to make the argument of turtles all the way down.
The problem is that you reject the first part of the teaching, that it is Christ who intervened at her conception. So there is no need for further intervention.
“Eamon Duffy.”
I suppose we can keep at this all day.
You trust Duffy greater than the then Bishop of Jerusalem at the Council of Chalcedon?
“In addition to Epiphanius, there is Jerome who also lived in Palestine and does not report any tradition of an assumption.”
Epiphanius is a reliable source that the information regarding Mary’s tomb was at 370 AD, unknown in Jerusalem. Considering that Chalcedon was 70 years later, this is entirely understandable.
“Isidore of Seville, in the seventh century, echoes Epiphanius by saying that no one has any information at all about Mary’s death.”
Writing in the West, after the Fall of the Empire?
There are many Eastern sources who confirm the Assumption.
“GOD will NOT be mocked! You want a Scripture? Meditate on that one!”
Indeed. Your argument that Mary sinned, exists from silence and is not upheld by tradition. Tradition which is this case very much defends the tradition that Mary was sinless.
Saying that she could not have been bodily assumed, and that such a statement contradicts scripture is false.
Scripture says no such thing. Scripture doesn’t even comment on Mary’s life after Christ’s death beyond a solitary snippet in Acts.
There is so much information out there on the Early Church which is not contained in Scripture. Are we to regard all of it as false? Hardly. This is why Tradition is necessary.
I realise this is a radical statement, but the Gospels are the transmission of an oral tradition, years after Christ’s death and resurrection. The preservation of that oral tradition, both in the original books and in their later compilations, are why we are here today, arguing over the nature of those teachings.
None of this happens in a vacuum. Scripture AND Tradition complement each other. We cannot have one without the other.
“Why do you guys refuse to acknowledge that there are two lines of bible manuscripts...The relatively few that your religion makes claims to and the Majority Texts which are completely separate from Rome and Jerome???”
Depends on what you are talking about? OT or NT?
OT, there is the Masoretic text vs the LXX. I’m aware of the difference between the Masoretic text and the LXX, which isn’t really the issue here.
I’m aware of three ancient Greek manuscripts that are dated to the 4th century prior to the publication of Jerome’s Vulgate.
The Codex Vaticanus, the Codex Alexandrine and the Codex Sinaiticus. That is all.
There are certainly. more that existed, but those are all we have at present.
I remember Jews saying the same thing...
Maybe the Catholics stole the body!
ROTFLMAO!
I did NOT call into question your intelligence. Rather I called into question your word choices and suggested that continued education would be of benefit to you. Clearly if I thought you stupid or a moron, education would be of no benefit.
No I was saved as a Baptist believer at 7, and we lived out in the sticks. It was too far for us to walk to the regular school, but the Catholic school bus picked up the neighbor kids so my old man talked them into picking us up--- of course then we went to the Catholic school, for 2 years until, thankfully, we moved.
It was one of the most traumatic experiences my brother and I ever had. He was bullied constantly and I had to fight for him. And I was younger by 2 years
The nuns were hideous bearded menopausal creatures that carried straps around the school, just looking for trouble.
If I was the only kid who knew the answer and raised my hand, I was ignored. I was forced to attend all kinds of strange rituals, to this day I have no idea what was going on, as there seemed to be a feast day 2-3 times a week and they dragged us off to this Gothic nightmare of a church with idols all over the place. There was a lot of kneeling, chanting, mumbling, God only knows what. The other kids told me just to do what they did. Up and down, chant, mumble, craziness. Get holy water at the door, genuflect, scrape and bow, every other minute.
The priest was creepy, the altar boys were my friends and they swore like sailors and said they drank the old guy's wine. I think the priest was always drunk. Later, in fact within the last ten years, he has been sentenced to prison for you all know what----- he was just moved from parish to parish, molesting little children. No wonder the boys drank.
thankfully my mother kept us sane, we went to a Baptist church every Sunday, Christmas etc. I look at my time there as an education that God meant me to have alright, but not like a Catholic wants to think.
My mother said well we dont have idols, so do whatever you want with them. The Marys were all shot with beebee guns in the pasture, then we buried them or something. I dont know, and dont care.
“and are justified by his grace as a gift...”
Isn’t that what we are saying is the gift that Christ gave to Mary? Even before she was born?
Because our existence does not end with death.
Good question though, and it is important to recall this is true even in the case of souls going to Hell. Hence when Christ descended into Hell.
Which is why I asked him if I have understood him correctly. I am not quite sure.
You don't have to. Your Roman Catholic catechism does for you.
Do you believe your catechism?
969 - "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
Do you believe your popes?
The words of the Holy Father certainly come as an encouragement to those participating in this Thursday's Roman dialogue on the issue of the Fifth Marian Dogma. The Day of Dialogue, consisting of bishops and theologians discussing the present appropriateness of the solemn definition of Our Lady's role as Spiritual Mother of all humanity, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces and Advocate...
"During his Angelus message last Sunday (March 21, 2010), Pope Benedict referred to Mary as the "Mediatrix of grace for every penitent sinner..."
And yes, we know Rome finagles its teaching by trying to say Mary gets her mediatrix role from Christ, but guess what? There is nowhere in Scripture that says Christ gives up His role as our sole, unique and complete mediator between God and men.
Once again, in terrible and explicit effrontery, Rome stands against the word of God...
" For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- 1 Timothy 2:5
As blue-duncan reminded us awhile back, in order to understand Christ's work on our behalf, we must know the correct definition and responsibility of a "mediator."
Mary does not "mediate" between God and men. Salvation is by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone for God's glory alone. And we know this by the infallible word of God which Rome contradicts, ignores and denies, time after time after time.
Well first chapter of Enoch is my own personal study right now. That it was among the dead sea scrolls I find intriguing.
“So, until the original (Hebrew) texts emerge, It is my opinion that the “new” must be proved in the “old” - quite the reverse of what is commonly insisted upon.”
Too true. Too true. Kindred soul here. Yes, it is most unfortunate that we do not possess hebrew originals. Even the earliest Greek stuff only goes back to mid 4th century. There’s a lot of miles left to go.
It is also a pity that the LXX is in the Greek. Something lamented even in Jerome’s time.
I’d be more comfortable with the Masoretic text if they had an earlier date. I’m not sure quite what Jerome used, but there is a fair gap from the earliest Masoretic texts we have and Jerome. I’m willing to put up with the translation, as the translation had access to sources we don’t have, with corrections for those sources which are older, such as the dead sea scrolls.
There is so much there in the OT, much that was old even in the time of Moses. Probably Abraham as well.
Thank you for your time sir, and I hope you have a wonderful day.
“Because our existence does not end with death.”
Then death is not the end of life but simply a change of condition or state? And resurrection is not the restoration to life but a reversal of that change?
“Hence when Christ descended into Hell.”
That would be “God as Christ the Son” according to your earlier comment? God was in Hell?
But I've got to tell you, I think non-RC parents who send their kids to parochial schools are taking a terrible chance with them. William, God clearly protected your children and led them in the right direction. I honestly wouldn't have had the nerve to take that chance. Not after hearing my husband's stories about parochial school and certainly not after listening to 1000silverling's scathing remarks.
"Flee from idolatry."
Where in Scripture are we told such nonsense? It's total fiction that denies the singular work of Christ.
Repent from that foul belief.
The problem is that you reject the first part of the teaching, that it is Christ who intervened at her conception.
Just "lucky," I guess.
Nice try. But you did, whether you want to admit it or not. You have no idea to what level I am educated. The spirit in which your remark was made was not light-hearted and kind.
Sorry, but “ROTFLMAO” doesn’t quite cut it.
Hoss (as in my screen name)
apparently when it’s Ex Cathedra... no?
You tell us.
Hoss
Actually, D, your wife, Southern living, soldiers, and Bob Feller weren’t at the heart of the question; veneration of saints as defined by the Roman Catholic Church are.
How do you communicate with them? How do you wing your requests to them?
How do you make them hear you?
Hoss
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