Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
Here's the title:
And it carries the official sanctions of:
ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.
WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR
Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .
Here they are:
However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.
p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .
p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.
5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.
6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.
"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor
p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence
p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]
p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]
9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]
p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]
5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]
p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"
p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."
To: presently no screen name; BenKenobi
narses provided the smoking gun, Ben. This is quoted from narses’ post:
“Hear all our prayers, O Mother, [Blasphemously usurping God's role]
and grant them all. [Hideously blasphemous God-like powers]
We are all your children: [blasphemously usurping God-like parenthood]
Grant the prayers of [YOUR] children.”[blasphemously usurping God-like prayer-granting powers]
1. “hear all our prayers....” Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
2. “We are all your children: Grant the prayers of your children.”
We are HER children? HER CHILDREN? We are God’s children and His ALONE.
Now... You were saying something about not praying to Mary??
.
Hoss
.
.
You can be sure, there will ALWAYS [Until Jesus returns] be sufficient weasel words in the Vatican DAFFYNITIONARY, for RC's to rationalize the horrific idolatries, blasphemies and heresies in Mary's name.
.
As a psychologist, the level of utter DENIAL involved is rivaled only, in my experience, by decades long addicted alcoholics. Evidently addictionis to idolatry, blasphemy etc. are every bit as demonized and tough to crack.
To: presently no screen name; BenKenobi
narses provided the smoking gun, Ben. This is quoted from narses’ post:
“Hear all our prayers, O Mother, [Blasphemously usurping God's role]
and grant them all. [Hideously blasphemous God-like powers]
We are all your children: [blasphemously usurping God-like parenthood]
Grant the prayers of [YOUR] children.”[blasphemously usurping God-like prayer-granting powers]
1. “hear all our prayers....” Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
2. “We are all your children: Grant the prayers of your children.”
We are HER children? HER CHILDREN? We are God’s children and His ALONE.
Now... You were saying something about not praying to Mary??
.
Hoss
.
.
You can be sure, there will ALWAYS [Until Jesus returns] be sufficient weasel words in the Vatican DAFFYNITIONARY, for RC's to rationalize the horrific idolatries, blasphemies and heresies in Mary's name.
.
As a psychologist, the level of utter DENIAL involved is rivaled only, in my experience, by decades long addicted alcoholics. Evidently addictionis to idolatry, blasphemy etc. are every bit as demonized and tough to crack.
Here's the title:
And it carries the official sanctions of:
ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.
WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR
Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .
Here they are:
However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.
p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .
p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.
5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.
6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.
"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor
p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence
p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]
p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]
9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]
p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]
5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]
p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"
p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."
Here's the title:
And it carries the official sanctions of:
ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.
WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR
Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .
Here they are:
However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.
p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .
p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.
5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.
6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.
"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor
p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence
p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]
p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]
9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]
p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]
5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]
p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"
p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."
Here's the title:
And it carries the official sanctions of:
ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.
WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR
Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .
Here they are:
However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.
p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .
p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.
5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.
6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.
"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor
p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence
p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]
p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]
9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]
p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]
5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]
p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"
p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=460#460
To: BenKenobi
We've already got it. We already know that all history to you must be revised to prop up the Vatican's system. If necessary, to prop up the system, you would say that the Roman Catholic Church was in Britain in 300 B.C., because of the longing anticipation of the British to be Roman Catholic.
We already realize that you absolutely must revise all history to prop up the false notion that Jesus was creating a papacy in Matthew 16, and that a church as you want to believe exists there, actually exists there.
You even want to revise our words as we type them on this forum. We never said anything about what people in 100 A.D. called themselves. We are not concerned what they CALLED themselves.
We know that nice folks like you can't think any differently -- only what the Vatican says is truth, can be truth to you, even if they lie to you. So we are not first interested in changing your minds. We write firmly so that others will realize that the whole world need not succumb to the same mental traps.
Hey, other folks out there reading this, there are libraries, full---literal libraries of historical materials that have been written and compiled without either deference to the Roman Catholic Church or prejudice against the Roman Catholic Church. Read RCC-approved stuff. You're free to do so, and the comparison will help you understand some important things.
But histories, too, that were not written to prop up any religious system exist. The authors were not sitting around saying, "How can we destroy the views of the RCC." They were written by legitimate historians who were not bound to any church or its hierarchy to produce a product or create a particular mind set.
Don't simply swallow the Roman Catholic view of Roman, European, or American history. There is plenty of material out there.
quix....turn off the asinine big colorful type.....your nonsense is no more or less meaningful because of the size of type you use......useless information is useless information, even if printed on a billboard. I have read your comments on many threads over a period of time and seldom, if ever, do you make sense.
Latin is a useful language to learn in the study of those languages descended from it, and even English which is not. Knowledge of Latin roots typically means one can decipher the meaning of words never previously encountered, in my experience. Certain career paths and disciplines almost require an understanding.
So, it’s not entirely dead and not exactly useless. I do tend to join you in being suspect of resorting to the use of Latin too often, though. It comes across as an attempt to obscure, or like the use of jargon to befuddle those not belonging to this or that in-group.
To: presently no screen name; BenKenobi
narses provided the smoking gun, Ben. This is quoted from narses’ post:
“Hear all our prayers, O Mother, [Blasphemously usurping God's role]
and grant them all. [Hideously blasphemous God-like powers]
We are all your children: [blasphemously usurping God-like parenthood]
Grant the prayers of [YOUR] children.”[blasphemously usurping God-like prayer-granting powers]
1. “hear all our prayers....” Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
2. “We are all your children: Grant the prayers of your children.”
We are HER children? HER CHILDREN? We are God’s children and His ALONE.
Now... You were saying something about not praying to Mary??
.
Hoss
.
.
You can be sure, there will ALWAYS [Until Jesus returns] be sufficient weasel words in the Vatican DAFFYNITIONARY, for RC's to rationalize the horrific idolatries, blasphemies and heresies in Mary's name.
.
As a psychologist, the level of utter DENIAL involved is rivaled only, in my experience, by decades long addicted alcoholics. Evidently addictionis to idolatry, blasphemy etc. are every bit as demonized and tough to crack.
To: presently no screen name; BenKenobi
narses provided the smoking gun, Ben. This is quoted from narses’ post:
“Hear all our prayers, O Mother, [Blasphemously usurping God's role]
and grant them all. [Hideously blasphemous God-like powers]
We are all your children: [blasphemously usurping God-like parenthood]
Grant the prayers of [YOUR] children.”[blasphemously usurping God-like prayer-granting powers]
1. “hear all our prayers....” Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
2. “We are all your children: Grant the prayers of your children.”
We are HER children? HER CHILDREN? We are God’s children and His ALONE.
Now... You were saying something about not praying to Mary??
.
Hoss
.
.
You can be sure, there will ALWAYS [Until Jesus returns] be sufficient weasel words in the Vatican DAFFYNITIONARY, for RC's to rationalize the horrific idolatries, blasphemies and heresies in Mary's name.
.
As a psychologist, the level of utter DENIAL involved is rivaled only, in my experience, by decades long addicted alcoholics. Evidently addictionis to idolatry, blasphemy etc. are every bit as demonized and tough to crack.
To: presently no screen name; BenKenobi
narses provided the smoking gun, Ben. This is quoted from narses’ post:
“Hear all our prayers, O Mother, [Blasphemously usurping God's role]
and grant them all. [Hideously blasphemous God-like powers]
We are all your children: [blasphemously usurping God-like parenthood]
Grant the prayers of [YOUR] children.”[blasphemously usurping God-like prayer-granting powers]
1. “hear all our prayers....” Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
2. “We are all your children: Grant the prayers of your children.”
We are HER children? HER CHILDREN? We are God’s children and His ALONE.
Now... You were saying something about not praying to Mary??
.
Hoss
.
.
You can be sure, there will ALWAYS [Until Jesus returns] be sufficient weasel words in the Vatican DAFFYNITIONARY, for RC's to rationalize the horrific idolatries, blasphemies and heresies in Mary's name.
.
As a psychologist, the level of utter DENIAL involved is rivaled only, in my experience, by decades long addicted alcoholics. Evidently addictionis to idolatry, blasphemy etc. are every bit as demonized and tough to crack.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=460#460
To: BenKenobi
We've already got it. We already know that all history to you must be revised to prop up the Vatican's system. If necessary, to prop up the system, you would say that the Roman Catholic Church was in Britain in 300 B.C., because of the longing anticipation of the British to be Roman Catholic.
We already realize that you absolutely must revise all history to prop up the false notion that Jesus was creating a papacy in Matthew 16, and that a church as you want to believe exists there, actually exists there.
You even want to revise our words as we type them on this forum. We never said anything about what people in 100 A.D. called themselves. We are not concerned what they CALLED themselves.
We know that nice folks like you can't think any differently -- only what the Vatican says is truth, can be truth to you, even if they lie to you. So we are not first interested in changing your minds. We write firmly so that others will realize that the whole world need not succumb to the same mental traps.
Hey, other folks out there reading this, there are libraries, full---literal libraries of historical materials that have been written and compiled without either deference to the Roman Catholic Church or prejudice against the Roman Catholic Church. Read RCC-approved stuff. You're free to do so, and the comparison will help you understand some important things.
But histories, too, that were not written to prop up any religious system exist. The authors were not sitting around saying, "How can we destroy the views of the RCC." They were written by legitimate historians who were not bound to any church or its hierarchy to produce a product or create a particular mind set.
Don't simply swallow the Roman Catholic view of Roman, European, or American history. There is plenty of material out there.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=616#616
To: Deo volente
Wrong.........Queen of Heaven is pagan thinking ...
The Catholic Church has made Mary the “Queen of Heaven”. The mention of the “queen of heaven” in the Bible makes God angry, it is not a good thing for the simple reason there is no biblical queen..... Check out the similarities of these people to the catholics today...interesting.
Jeremiah 7:18,........ “The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes (wafers?).... to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN,.... and to pour out drink offerings (wine) unto other gods, that they may ....provoke me to anger..... Why would God be angry?..... Because He is a jealous God, and does not want any false replacements.
Jeremiah 44:15-25,...... “Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,......
” As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not harken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense (candles, worship?)... unto the QUEEN OF HEAVEN,.... and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.....
But since we left off to burn incense... to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN,.... and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. And when we burned incense.... to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN,.... and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes (wafers) ....to WORSHIP HER,.... and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying;......... “ Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense ..to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN,... and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.”
The word to make cakes in Hebrew ‘atsab’..carving in wood this was done by the women..... They were in rebellion to God, notice they say:
...”for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, WE WILL NOT HARKEN UNTO THEE.”.......They didn’t listen,.... without obedience to the word they went into idolatry..... Incense, burnt drink offerings made her cakes and worshiped her.
False worship is practiced today..... As we can see the Queen of heaven is not a good thing but a rebuke.
There is no Queen mentioned in Scripture, but we do have a King.
Mary never had so many problems until the Roman Catholic church gave her the offices and positions... that God did not!
Somehow, you manage to make
horrifically WRONG
hilarious.
Most professionals are ‘addicted’ to professional games for one reason or another.
I never bought into such games.
LOL.
Indeed.
That does not make sense.
Stop posting the same thing over and over again.
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