Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary

Why I Am a Catholic ^ | 12/16/10 | Frank Weathers

[marshmallow]

Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.

Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.

Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.

Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.

Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.

Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.

This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.

Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!

But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!

Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,

Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

John Calvin:

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.

And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.

And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.

Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!

To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.

[BenKenobi]

Yes, we are her children. I already posted on this awhile back. “Son behold your Mother, Mother behold your Son.”

Not sure why this is difficult to grasp. She is a mother for all of us, especially those who have lost ours. :)

Well of course, she would have to be able to hear us, when we ask for her, no? That’s really not the issue at all.

Except to you, it’s prayer unless they are physically present.

As for your snippet, I encourage you to read all of the prayer and understand. I don’t *expect* that of you, but it’s your challenge.

Blessings.

[narses]

Here ya go Hoss, another “smokin gun”, lol!

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

[HossB86]

You’re done. When you have to resort to this, you’ve lost the argument:
“Indeed no! On the other hand you might try taking some basic educational courses in English and in Logic. Most community colleges have remedial courses at very low cost. Then, after you are able to use the language we ought to have in common in a rational way, let’s try this discussion again. Until then:”

Personal attack much? Speaking of logic (of which you are lecturing me), that sounds an awful lot like the ol’ Ad Hominem.

Congratulations.

Now try sticking to the point.

Hoss

[presently no screen name]

Beating around a bush is for those who need to. It’s common knowledge Catholics/THE POPE all pray to Mary. And I know from personal experience - so any tantrums that Catholics don’t are really silly.

[narses]

“You’re done.”

Nope, still here “hoss”.

Do try checking into those remedial classes, you show much promise.

[caww]

Mary is commanded to pray FOR us,

Oh really...prove it in scripture.

in addition to our own prayers

Would appear your prayers are good enough.

The Rosary includes the Our Father.

Once God is mentioned, everywhere else is praying to Mary in the Rosary...the focus is on her.

You seem hung up on the fact that she is not here in the flesh presently.

Not at all hung up..it's a fact she is not alive here on earth. She is safely with the Lord.

I don’t understand this at all. You believe that the Holy Spirit is inside of you, helping you to pray, and that Christ is right there beside you.

You are right...you do not understand nor can you as long as you believe and practice idolatry and continue to dishonor Christ by praying to Mary. You are blinded by your practices which Jesus clearly said not to do...and which the scripture says if your do these you will become like the idols you worship...blind and cannot hear...the truth.

The catechism says that we can ask any of the Saints to pray for us to God.

Well of course it does...where did you get the Catechism from? Romes teachings and their bondage of it's members to things taught by men... which oppose the clear teachings of what God instructed...and keep it's members blind to the truth..just as they did in the middle ages.

[Turtlepower]

How do you know that Mary or any other human that has gone to Heaven can hear your prayer? If millions of people on Earth are asking her to pray for them, can she hear them all? If so, wouldn’t that require her to be omnipotent or omnipresent?

[Deo volente]

No Catholic here has ever said that Mary doesn't lead us to God. We love her even more BECAUSE of her wonderful faith and trust in God.

As you posted, her “Magnificat” points us to the Lord. She praises God for His goodness and blessings. She also says,
“He Who is Mighty has done great things for me.”

[presently no screen name]

Now... You were saying something about not praying to Mary??

Yeah, they say alot. Wonder who they are trying to impress? LOL!

[John Leland 1789]

Jerome’s Latin, corrupted
Vaticanus (Greek text) corruped

Rome’s Greek texts came from North Africa where they were being corrupted by mystics for 300 years before Constantine ordered 300 copies and Eusebius filled the order.

Jerome wouldn’t have had any interest in the Latin that came from further east, because he had to produce a Latin text favoring the Vatican.

The later English translators knew the difference between the two lines or genre of Greek manuscripts, and they knew of the corruption of North Africa (Alexandrai). So they shucked the corrupted line until 1881 when two Roman Catholics. Wescott and Hort, snuck corrupt manuscripts into the revision committees in London for the Revised Version.

[caww]

Exactly! Good Post..and spot on.

[John Leland 1789]

"The Latin was preceded by a modern English translation. That may have escaped your notice."

You dull it real good by adding all those Latin lines.

[presently no screen name]

I don’t *expect* that of you, but it’s your challenge.

God doesn't expect it of HIS OWN, and HIS OWN don't dabble in deception.

[BenKenobi]

“If necessary, to prop up the system, you would say that the Roman Catholic Church was in Britain in 300 B.C.”

Well I daresay that’s rather a strawman. All I have simply argued is that Christianity was present in Britain prior to the establishment of Catholicism (the term used by Theodosius, btw) Which, if you know anything about the period in question isn’t a stretch, because that is the area of the Empire which Constantine’s father governed. Catholicism was quite prevalent in Britain in the 3rd and 4th century AD. Those that were Christians considered themselves to be Romans first and foremost, to the point of importing Roman culture into Britain.

But then you already knew all this.

“We already realize that you absolutely must revise all history to prop up the false notion that Jesus was creating a papacy in Matthew 16, and that a church as you want to believe exists there, actually exists there.”

All the historical evidence we have shows that the Bishop of Rome was founded with St. Peter and that the office of the Pope has gradually came to greater understanding over time. Rome has always been prominent, even in the earliest times, as evidenced by Paul’s own letter to the church in Rome. Given as it was the centre of the Empire, it would hardly make sense that the bishop of Rome would not have similar authority over the Church.

That being said, what we see in Matthew is that Peter is given Primacy over the other Apostles, and that the Apostles as a whole are given the power to bind and loose, to forgive sins. We are also told that Christ is building His Church for which the Apostles will be the head, and that their mission is to preach the Gospel to all nations.

You cannot handwave Matthew for the parts which are inconvenient to your theology.

“We are not concerned what they CALLED themselves.”

You are not. I am. That’s the point I’m trying to drive home to you. You may not care what they called themselves, but I do. Call them munchkin fairy queens if you want, that has equivalent veracity to calling the early church ‘Biblicists’, when they possessed neither a canon nor a bible as we understand it today.

“only what the Vatican says is truth”

A piss poor argument to direct at a convert.

“We write firmly so that others will realize that the whole world need not succumb to the same mental traps.”

Doesn’t matter what you write, or how hard you try to drive it home when the chisel slips, and you crack your own rock. There is simply no evidence besides wishful revisionism for the scenario you set out. Write a book for the fiction section, I’m sure you’ll garner an audience.

[boatbums]

So why then did Christ establish a Church to spread the Word if we are expected to get by solely on our own interpretation?

Well, just who/what do you think a "Church" is??? The church is the called-out assembly of the members of the body of Christ. In other words, it is us - those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as Savior. I was not implying that the assembling of ourselves together for fellowship, teaching, sharing, worshiping has no place, on the contrary, we are even told to not forsake it.

My point was that we are all responsible for knowing what God has spoken to us in his word. When Peter said some of Paul's writings were hard to understand (II Peter 3:16) he added that it was hard for those who were "unlearned" and "unstable" that wrestled with their meaning. So, we should be sure we do not stay unlearned, but by the power of the Holy Spirit within us along with fellowship and study with other Christians, we can learn the meanings of Scripture - the things of God.

[Quix]

NO DOUBT! GOODNESS!

CONGRATS TO THEM.

[narses]

Really? You find Latin dull?

[caww]

Interesting ...you responded exactly as I knew you would...rather than giving the greatest Honor to God as Mary indeed did...you brought the conversation back to Mary herslef...thus point taken that no matter who speaks highly of God...catholics, as yourself, have a need for “others” which brings questions to mind on why the need for these. If ones relationship with the Lord is close and tightknit as He desires....why go to others?....If He says He is our mediater...and He is all powerful and everything has been given to Him..then why the need for more? Is not Christ in all His glory enough to meet your needs? Is His Holy Spirit to weak to fulfill Gods bidding on our behalf?

[BenKenobi]

I’m holding you to the same standard I held myself.

Be it deception, or not, it would be wise for you to at least attempt to understand what is being presented to you.

[Quix]

I trust that Silverlings

knew/knows that the only fitting thing to do with idols

is to hammer them to pieces/ burn them to ashes/ pulverize them or otherwise utterly destroy them—praying spiritual warfare prayers in the process.

One would not want to be responsible before God for transferring such hideousness and their demonic attachments to some other mortal.