Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary

Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.

Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.

Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.

Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.

Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.

Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.

This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.

Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!

But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.

And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.

And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.

To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.

That's a kindly put assumption.

However, it's just not true.

I hate the horrific idolatries, blasphemies, heresies, tyrannical arrogant structure and operations . . . etc. of the RCC. I don't hate 100% of everything about it.

I have met some wonderful RC Christians still in the RCC. They are proportionally very few in number, however,

The Ferraro book came from some FR thread. RC's claimed it was all a farce, an unfair, inaccurate claim--that there was no such book saying such horrible untruths about RC's and RC beliefs.

So, I decided to get the book and see for myself. It was worse than I ever imagined.

WORSE, WE HAVE SEEN SIMILAR ATTITUDES AND BELIEFS DEFENDED 24/7/365 ON FR FOR MORE THAN 10 YEARS.

NO INSTITUTION SAVES.

Scripture makes clear that Mary has no follow-on role any where in any way described by the RCC hierarchy.

NONE of the credible Heavenly visitations have described Mary in any Heavenly role described in the RCC dogma. Only a few have mentioned her at all. They ALL have described her teaching aborted babies in Heaven, the ways of God--as do angels and other graduated Christians.

Essentially, she's evidently an also ran Heavenly kindergarten teacher.

That's it.

JESUS THE CHRIST SAID IN GOD'S WORD:

That of those

born of a woman

JOHN THE BAPTIST

WAS THE GREATEST ON EARTH.

I tell you THE TRUTH: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
46While he was still speaking to the people, behold,(BR) his mother and his(BS) brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.[a] 48But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 50For(BT) whoever(BU) does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." ESV

Obedience Is Thicker than Blood 46-47While he was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers showed up. They were outside trying to get a message to him. Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and brothers are out here, wanting to speak with you." 48-50Jesus didn't respond directly, but said, "Who do you think my mother and brothers are?" He then stretched out his hand toward his disciples. "Look closely. These are my mother and brothers. Obedience is thicker than blood. The person who obeys my heavenly Father's will is my brother and sister and mother." THE MESSAGE

The True Family of Jesus 46 As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. 47 Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.”[g] 48 Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49 Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. 50 Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”--NEW LIVING TRANSLATION

.

. . . obviously, other than Christ Himself . . .

I guess y'all think Mary was hatched under a sacred rock--in Rome?

OR DO YOU SIMPLY REFUSE TO BELIEVE

GOD'S WORD?

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Scripture text: Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

P-Marlowe wrote:

...I think the whole idea of praying to the saints rather than directly to the Father as commanded by Christ is blasphemous ...

Really? So if I ask you to pray for me (please do!), I am blaspheming?

P-Marlowe wrote:

...it seems that the Catholic attitude toasted {sic} God is that somehow God is just too busy to hear our prayers...

Again, really? If I ask you to pray for me again (and I do!), is that because I think God is too busy to hear my prayers?

P-Marlowe wrote:

...or that if only a more holy person than ourselves could mediate between us and God that this would be more effective in getting our prayers heard than if we ask Jesus to be our mediator. ...

Wow, again, really? So if I ask you to pray for me (and again, I do!), does that mean I think you are more Holy than I or that I think Our Lord Jesus Christ is somehow NOT the Way, the Truth and the Light?

P-Marlowe wrote:

The whole thing diminishes the Glory and power of God.

What "whole thing"? Asking others to pray for us? Or is there more about Catholic Worship that bothers you to the point you condemn us? P-Marlowe wrote:

Frankly I believe that it was designed to do just that. Catholic theology exalts man and debases God. That is the bottom line.

Aha! It is everything that Catholic's believe, is that what you are claiming?

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

Wow, so you claim that the "bottom line" is that the theology of the entire Universal Church, extant since the Day of Pentecost "exalts man and debases God". Just wow. And with such clearly flawed reasoning. Do please pray for me and all of us debased (your implication) Catholics, as I assure you, we pray for you.

JESUS THE CHRIST SAID IN GOD'S WORD:

That of those

born of a woman

JOHN THE BAPTIST

WAS THE GREATEST ON EARTH.

. . . obviously, other than Christ Himself . . .

I guess y'all think Mary was hatched under a sacred rock--in Rome?

OR DO YOU SIMPLY REFUSE TO BELIEVE

GOD'S WORD?

JESUS THE CHRIST SAID IN GOD'S WORD:

That of those

born of a woman

JOHN THE BAPTIST

WAS THE GREATEST ON EARTH.

. . . obviously, other than Christ Himself . . .

I guess y'all think Mary was hatched under a sacred rock--in Rome?

OR DO YOU SIMPLY REFUSE TO BELIEVE

GOD'S WORD?

O blessed Virgin, Mother of God,
look down in mercy from Heaven,
where thou art enthroned as Queen,
upon me, a miserable sinner,
thine unworthy servant.
Although I know full well my own unworthiness,
yet in order to atone for the offenses that are done to thee
by impious and blasphemous tongues,
from the depths of my heart
I praise and extol thee as the purest,
the fairest, the holiest creature of all God’s handiwork.
I bless thy holy Name,
I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God,
ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin,
Co-Redemptrix of the human race.
I bless the Eternal Father who chose thee
in an especial way for His daughter;
I bless the Word Incarnate who took upon Himself our nature in thy bosom
and so made thee His Mother;
I bless the Holy Spirit who took thee as His bride.
All honor, praise and thanksgiving to the ever-blessed Trinity
who predestined thee and loved thee so exceedingly from all eternity
as to exalt thee above all creatures to the most sublime heights.
O Virgin, holy and merciful,
obtain for all who offend thee the grace of repentance,
and graciously accept this poor act of homage from me thy servant,
obtaining likewise for me from thy Divine Son
the pardon and remission of all my sins.

Amen.

Queen of heaven, rejoice. Alleluia.

For He whom thou didst deserve to bear, Alleluia.

Hath risen as He said, Alleluia.

Pray for us to God, Alleluia.

V. Rejoice and be glad, O Virgin Mary, Alleluia.
R. Because Our Lord is truly risen, Alleluia.

Let us pray

O God,
who by the resurrection of Thy Son,
Our Lord Jesus Christ,
hast vouchsafed to make glad the whole world, great,
we beseech Thee, that,
through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, His Mother,
we may attain the joys of eternal life.

Through the same Christ Our Lord.

Amen.

JESUS THE CHRIST SAID IN GOD'S WORD:

That of those

born of a woman

JOHN THE BAPTIST

WAS THE GREATEST ON EARTH.

. . . obviously, other than Christ Himself . . .

I guess y'all think Mary was hatched under a sacred rock--in Rome?

OR DO YOU SIMPLY REFUSE TO BELIEVE

GOD'S WORD?

“There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know.”

Martin Luther

O Mary, “full of grace and blessed among women,”
stretch out the hand of your motherly protection,
we ask you, upon us who gather round
your queenly throne as your handmaidens,
obedient to your command
and resolved with your help
to bring to realization in ourselves and our sisters
the ideals of truth and Christian perfection.

Our eyes are fixed on you in admiration, immaculate Virgin;
you who are loved by the Heavenly Father above all others!
O Virgin Spouse of the Holy Spirit!
Tender Mother of Jesus!
Obtain for us from your Divine Son
the grace to reflect your sublime virtues in our conduct,
according to our age and condition of life.

Grant that we may be spotless and pure
in our thoughts and in our behavior;
gentle, affectionate,
and sympathetic companions to our husbands;
to our children solicitous,
vigilant and wise mothers;
prudent administrators of our homes;
exemplary citizens of our dear country;
faithful daughters of the Church,
ever ready to allow ourselves to be guided
by her in thought and deed.

Help us, loving Mother,
to be truly devoted to the duties of our state of life;
help us make our homes true centers
of spiritual life and active charity,
schools where consciences will be rightly formed,
gardens where every virtue will flourish.
Give us your help that in social and political life
we may be patterns of deep faith,
of consistent and gracious Christian practice,
of incorruptible integrity,
and of well-balance judgment
based upon the solid principles of religion.

Bless these our resolutions
which you have inspired us to make
and the trials you have helped us to bear;
may we with your aid come to see
their abundant fruits in time and in eternity.

Amen.

JESUS THE CHRIST SAID IN GOD'S WORD:

That of those

born of a woman

JOHN THE BAPTIST

WAS THE GREATEST ON EARTH.

. . . obviously, other than Christ Himself . . .

I guess y'all think Mary was hatched under a sacred rock--in Rome?

OR DO YOU SIMPLY REFUSE TO BELIEVE

GOD'S WORD?

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