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Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary
Why I Am a Catholic ^ | 12/16/10 | Frank Weathers

Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow

Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.

Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.

Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.

Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.

Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.

Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.

This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.

Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!

But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!

Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,

Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

John Calvin:

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.

And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.

And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.

Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!

To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: freformed
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To: Deo volente; HossB86; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
"Mother of God” is a truth that flows naturally and logically from an understanding of Who Jesus is. When we apply the term to Mary, it's actually all about Christ. It points us unmistakably towards His Divinity, and slams the door shut on the several heresies about Him that were raging at the time.

On the contrary, in a clause the subject is never what follows the preposition.

The term *mother of God* is about Mary, the mother, not recognizing the divinity of Christ, since Mary is the subject.

1,321 posted on 12/20/2010 9:29:24 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
The term *Mother of God* is at the very least deceitful. Mother of Jesus is accurate and correct and gives no false impressions about who she is and what her role in God’s plan of redemption is. But that clearly is the problem. Catholics have, over the centuries, elevated her and given her characteristics and accolades that properly belong to only God Himself. It gives the clear impression that the whole end of this Mary stuff is to elevate her to godhood. What better way to do that than claim that she’s God’s mother. That elevates Mary to God’s place and diminishes God to the role of a lesser being than Mary.

I think you are right about this. What is probably not discussed is that the divinity of Jesus was not based on Mary's status. What I mean is that, other than being a virgin and from the lineage of King David, Mary had nothing to do with the fact that Jesus was Almighty God. He always was and always will be God and he took on flesh - incarnate - by the same way every other person does, with the exception of his having a human biological father.

1,322 posted on 12/20/2010 9:31:27 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: narses; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Thus the Virgin Mary remains in the middle between Christ and humankind.

Exodus 20:1-6 1 And God spoke all these words, saying,

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jesus is the mediator, the great high priest. Not Mary.

He died for our sins. Not Mary.

We go to God through Jesus. Not to Jesus through Mary.

What utter blasphemy.

1,323 posted on 12/20/2010 9:37:08 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Considering it was your exorcism post that started it all, it's pretty ironic that you would accuse someone of trying to stir up trouble.



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1,324 posted on 12/20/2010 9:37:45 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

pwnd.....

I love it.


1,325 posted on 12/20/2010 9:40:11 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Quix; Dr. Eckleburg

Matthew 6:7

And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

comes to mind...


1,326 posted on 12/20/2010 9:41:15 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Hypocrisy, thy name is Catholicism.


1,327 posted on 12/20/2010 9:42:30 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: narses; Natural Law; metmom

If it is not very common then translate it.


1,328 posted on 12/20/2010 9:43:10 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: metmom

“What utter blasphemy.”

Argue with Luther.

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


1,329 posted on 12/20/2010 9:45:05 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: WrightWings; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Knowing how much you have posted about following the posting rules on here, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of that one.

You need to remind your Catholic cohorts who have flagrantly violated the same directive which you are demanding compliance from a non-Catholic for.

1,330 posted on 12/20/2010 9:45:22 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Religion Moderator
"It is not in the same league as suggesting other Freepers need an exorcism."

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God."

There is ample proof in the world and the deeds of man that Satan and his demons are frequently successful. Freepers and the Religion Forum are no exception. I am sorry that you find that more offensive than filthy slurs against the Church.

1,331 posted on 12/20/2010 9:46:26 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; narses
Did Mary have anything to do with Jesus “being of one substance with the Father”?

“AMEN! Great and Godly question that, God willing, will lead them from the darkness into the light.”

_______________________________________________________________________________

...and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made Man.

You forgot this part of the Creed. Although the Holy Spirit effected the Incarnation, it was from Mary that Jesus took his body. He also has a human soul. However, He is one Divine Person with two natures, Divine and human, not two persons.

Mary is not merely the mother of his human nature, she is the mother of Him. From the moment of the Incarnation, Mary became His mother in the true sense of the word. Since Jesus is God (remember, He is one Person, not two!), and Mary is His mother, than she is the Mother of God.

Not of the Trinity, of course, or even of the Son from eternity (that would be absurd) but of the Son of God made Man. He did not cease to be God when He became Man. That's the crucial point here. One person, remember! To believe otherwise is to fall for the heresy of Nestorianism, which was condemned early on. No mainline Christian church believes in this heresy anymore. No mainline church has believed in this heresy for the past 1500 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

http://carm.org/nestorianism

http://www.lycos.com/info/nestorianism.html

1,332 posted on 12/20/2010 9:49:51 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: Quix

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2347476/posts

obnoxious is as obnoxious is...too bad, no one can justify crude behavior. Explain your points, inane as they are, in the common language. They will be no more nor no less pertinant than they are now.


1,333 posted on 12/20/2010 9:51:43 PM PST by terycarl (4)
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To: narses; Natural Law

So the translations of posts 1255 and 1257 are....?


1,334 posted on 12/20/2010 9:54:57 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Natural Law
I am sorry that you find that more offensive than filthy slurs against the Church.

Photobucket

1,335 posted on 12/20/2010 9:55:09 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: terycarl
Photobucket

1,336 posted on 12/20/2010 9:57:05 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom; presently no screen name
"Considering it was your exorcism post that started it all, it's pretty ironic that you would accuse someone of trying to stir up trouble."

Actually it was Presently No Screen Name in post #1038.

1,337 posted on 12/20/2010 10:00:17 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: metmom
Claiming she is the mother of God gives the false impression that His nature came from her. Jesus divine nature comes from the Father, not Mary.

I don't know any Catholics, either priests or laymen, that have that false impression. That impressions seems to me to be limited to fundamentalist protestants and misinformed anti-Catholics posting on websites and preaching in some churches.

No Catholic here, to my knowledge, has claimed Jesus' Divine nature came from Mary. However, He is one Person, and Mary is not merely the mother of His human nature, she is the mother of HIM. Not from all eternity, of course, but at the moment of the Incarnation, she BECAME His mother. His two natures are totally united in one Person. He is God, has always been God, and will always be God, and from the moment of the Incarnation, Mary became His Mother, and will always be His Mother.
1,338 posted on 12/20/2010 10:06:15 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: Natural Law; presently no screen name; narses

No, pnsn did not start it. He did not post the exorcism prayer which started all this. In that post he referenced the exorcism prayer you posted which initiated the RM’s insistence that any foreign phrases be translated.

So, where are the translations of posts 1255 and 1257 as per the RM’s instructions?


1,339 posted on 12/20/2010 10:06:29 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
"So the translations of posts 1255 and 1257 are....?"

I translated it for you in #1290.

1,340 posted on 12/20/2010 10:08:15 PM PST by Natural Law
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