Was Mary Sinless?

The Aristophrenium ^ | 12/05/2010 | " Fisher"

[Cronos]

No, that is not what I said. Let me explain:

1. Scripture is correct
2. Everything we believe must NOT contradict scripture. Holy Tradition which birthed scripture cannot contradict scripture -- if something DOES contradict, then it must be jettisioned. SCripture is the gold standard by which we compare. So that if something contradicts it (like sola scriptura), you must toss it out
3. Sola scriptura says scripture alone, yet that term itself is not in scripture, and it contradicts (Eph. 4:11–15).

[Grizzled Bear]

Well, does her virginity affect our salvation? Some progressive Christians think not. To them Matthew and Luke are just fables.

Her virginity before the birth of our Savior is important. After-wards, not so much. Look at it this way; Joseph married a cute young wife, chosen by God to carry Himself into the world as the path to salvation. What purpose would be served for God denying Joseph marital discourse with his cute young wife after Jesus' birth. Would her abstinence give her mystical powers, like the Lancelot myths?

RnMomof7, thank you for making a stand.

Incidentally, I believe Mary, the mother of Jesus and wife of Joseph could not transform into a giant battle robot. If certain individuals think this belief is blasphemous, I don't want to be right.

For the sake of Judith ann, I'll explain. Ridiculous statements invite reticule.

And to Freedumb2003, it's not the color of the skin, nor the nation of origin, but the content of character. I hope this makes sense to you but I have little hope for your comprehension. This isn't personal, but you seem to be a total and utter smeg head.

[LowOiL]

if mom was a goddess and we know his Father is a Holy and Righteous God.. from where did Jesus get His humanity..

Very well argued sir. Thanks.

[RobbyS]

Why before birth and not afterwards? Doesn’t that make the Virgin Birth a mere “sign” of Jesus’ divinity? Actually half-divinity, like Heracles or Achilles?

[Cronos]

Let's revisit Rn's post #503

Awww Ann, Do you own a Bible??? If not please consider buying one, it will so enrich your life..

Do you think this is an adequate sign of being "grown up"? And do you think this was NOT "throwing the first stone"?

Why does it bother you so much that someone does something different than you? Is that what your individual cults teach? To harangue people who do something different?

[Cronos]

Of course it does work -- if you believe in the concept of Original Sin or Original Taint/Stain, you believe that every new born baby has this sin/taint/stain right from the moment they are conceived.

You believe that, correct?

If you believe that then Mary had to be saved from that original sin too -- and THAT is what Jesus saved her from.

[Grizzled Bear]

Do you offer sacrifices to zeus?

God is God. Jesus is Jesus. Mary is Mary. Joseph is Joseph.

Jesus is God in the flesh.

Why do you cite pagan examples when I post about Jesus?

[Grizzled Bear]

God is the architect of creation. If Jesus, who is God, told rocks to proclaim His glory, they would do so. That's in the gospel. Read it.

Stop parsing words. God is the creator and king of everything, including the master you serve. Jesus does not need to ask anyone anything. He's coming back to establish his millennial reign.

Here's a crazy idea. Shake your fist at him and demand him to reveal himself. I dare ya!

[RobbyS]

The Catholic Church does not follow Augustine strictly. For this reason the Calvinists accuse theologians such as St.Thomas of being semi-Pelegians. There are, of course, Catholics are are closer to the Calvinists in this, to the point of being also Jansenists. The Irish Church got infected by this heresy, hence their puritanism.

[RobbyS]

I am talking about your logic. It places Mary in a role like the Greeks assigned the mother of Heracles.

[RobbyS]

Why should we believe anything you say?

[Grizzled Bear]

The Catholic Church does not follow Augustine strictly.

Does the Catholic Church follow the pantheon of Greece? You cited Heracles and Achilles in an earlier post to me. Do you believe either possessed, in your words, "half devinity?"

RobbyS, you'd do well to abandon your pagan beliefs and embrace Christ. Just sayin...

[Grizzled Bear]

Why should we believe anything you say?

Stand up.

Seriously. Stand up.

I really mean it.

Are you standing up?

If the answer is no, go back to the top.P> So, you're standing up? Good for you.

Slowly turn around.

Do you see where you are?

That's good.

Do you know why?

Where ever you go, that's where you are.

I hope this helps.

Oh, Robby... Take that back to your master.

And try to stay classy, baby. If you really luv that pagan thing you should explore the roots of islam. Just sayin...

[Grizzled Bear]

Why should we believe anything you say?

Read the Gospel. Jesus said that if the children did not declare him, the rocks would. Are you familiar with the Gospel?

Now it's your turn. You cite pagan beliefs. What would the heroes of the Greek pantheon say about this subject? I only phrased that question based on your earlier post.

Please, entertain us. I can't speak for the rest; however, I'm waiting.

[Grizzled Bear]

I am talking about your logic. It places Mary in a role like the Greeks assigned the mother of Heracles.

Do you really want to have fun? Shake your fist at God.

Seriously

I used to be wise in the world, just like you.

One day, I raged against the creator. I called him by that title. I knew who he was all along. I played around with the classics, just like you.

So have you got the guts. Go for it. I did.

Be a little crazy. Shake your fist at Him.

I bet 100,000,000 bottle caps that you haven't got the guts.

[Cronos]

Actually, a civilised debate, even one where no one agrees with the other and end up agreeing to disagree, CAN happen and HAS happened on FR Religion forum threads. It just depends on who is there on the thread. It's mainly Calvinists or Calvinist thought non-Christian cultists (like the OPC) who toss out the slurs and break down a thread to mud-slingling, but:
1. There are Calvinists with whom we can disagree strongly and yet have a civil conversation with where they won't toss out lies as facts. I'm thinking of boatbums and HarleyD in this category.
2. We Catholics too break down threads, so blame falls on all "sides".

[Cronos]

“You really should not post a small portion of an entire encyclical “ —> half-truths are standard tools in the arsenal of the OPC.

[Cronos]

What are you talking about pnsm?

let's review your posts.

ROE said in #678

During his papacy, Benedict XVI has advocated a return to fundamental Christian values to counter the increased secularisation of many developed countries. He views relativism’s denial of objective truth, and the denial of moral truths in particular, as the central problem of the 21st century. He teaches the importance of both the Catholic Church and an understanding of God’s redemptive love. He has reaffirmed the “importance of prayer in the face of the activism and the growing secularism of many Christians engaged in charitable work.”

you asked in #805

This giant in the religious community....where does he teach of the importance of - God's Word? #1 in importance.

to which ROE said in #826

In his wonderful book “Jesus of Nazareth”. I understand that the second in this series is due out soon.

How do you get this to mean

You would consider that God’s Word?

How do you jump to such conclusions? That is just sola interpretura.

You ask where has Pope Benedict taught about importance of God's Word -- ROE answers you by referring to a book the pope wrote. And you jump to some erroneous conclusion. That is sola intepretura

[Cronos]

Lastchance -- the cult that Dr E belongs to just excerpts from many place, they even have an excerpted Bible (as the whole Bible would be too complex for them and wouldnt allow the OPC cult leaders/profits control their 20,000 followers). They were probably fed this excerpt out of context in their book "how to beaf Catlicks" by their latest Profit

What is interesting is that the same Encyclical "Caritas in veritate" in the preceeding paragraphs says

It is certainly useful, and in some circumstances imperative, to launch financial initiatives in which the humanitarian dimension predominates. However, this must not obscure the fact that the entire financial system has to be aimed at sustaining true development. Above all, the intention to do good must not be considered incompatible with the effective capacity to produce goods.

or

Financiers must rediscover the genuinely ethical foundation of their activity, so as not to abuse the sophisticated instruments which can serve to betray the interests of savers. Right intention, transparency, and the search for positive results are mutually compatible and must never be detached from one another. If love is wise, it can find ways of working in accordance with provident and just expediency, as is illustrated in a significant way by much of the experience of credit unions.

or

Both the regulation of the financial sector, so as to safeguard weaker parties and discourage scandalous speculation, and experimentation with new forms of finance, designed to support development projects, are positive experiences that should be further explored and encouraged, highlighting the responsibility of the investor.

or

However, certain conditions need to be met: the market should be genuinely transparent; the producers, as well as increasing their profit margins, should also receive improved formation in professional skills and technology; and finally, trade of this kind must not become hostage to partisan ideologies. A more incisive role for consumers, as long as they themselves are not manipulated by associations that do not truly represent them, is a desirable element for building economic democracy.

[Cronos]

well, actually it’s a strawman. Because The Church considers Mary a created being. If RnMom’s group considers “mom was a goddess and we know his Father is a Holy and Righteous God”, then she and her group are free to believe that, but it’s not correct to ascribe them to The Church