Harry Potter is Dangerous for Both You and Your Children

"There's plenty of real occultism embedded in Rowling's fantasy works," Wohlberg contends....

Maybe so, maybe not. I'm not an expert in the occult. All I can say is, it's a very convenient assertion to make, given that anyone who did actually have occult knowledge, would instantly be dismissed for disagreeing with him on the grounds that they were batting for the other team.

Many equally qualified analyses take a contrary view, so I'll keep an open mind. It's either that, or proclaim his argument the winning one purely on the basis that he played a similar debating tactic to "Godwin's Law".

I wonder how many on here actually read the Bible?Pastor Phelps is apparently able to quote whole books of the Bible verbatim, but that doesn't make him right.

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons" on its own means one thing, but put it together with, "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’" and it can mean something completely different.

Obviously, in Salem some 318 years ago there were a lot of people accusing each other of using witchcraft, and consorting with the Devil, and so on... a clear case of what can happen when you do not have enough good Christian folk reading Psalm 91, Proverbs 3, and 1 John 4:18 because they're too busy tossing themselves off over the fire and brimstone bits.

Wow, the fact that Rowling got letters from kids “wanting to attend a witchcraft school” proves the books are evil.

It proves that children need guidance, and consistency in the guidance they get.

I have a 9 year old son with high functioning autism who cannot wrap his head round inconsistencies - to the point that he just cannot understand why it's okay for adults to tell children off but not for children to tell adults off.

One time he bellowed at a supply teacher, "HOW MANY TIMES? WALK DON'T RUN, YOU BLOODY FOOL!". This guy had only been there for a day, and was shocked, and walked up to him and said, "What did you say?!". He hissed back, "Try using these..." and waggled his ears. As if that wasn't bad enough, one teacher overheard the exchange and started laughing, and the deputy head said, "You shouldn't laugh, it's not funny".

To cut an even longer story short, this ended up with him in the head's office, and me being called in to collect him. I arrived in time to see him go off on a huge tirade at the inconsistency of adults. "But he was running and that's against the rules! And I only said what she says to me (pointing at the headteacher)! And Miss said it was funny! But Other Miss said it wasn't! If you lot could make your bloody minds up what's right and what's wrong then I wouldn't keep getting into trouble!"

Mal, you named Psalms 91, Prov 3 and 1 John 4:18...I take it you're in agreement then?

Prov 3: In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

And there's also this one:

Deut 18: 9 “When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.

I think God is fairly clear here

It couldn't be clearer, could it:

Don't encourage your kids to conjure, raise the dead, predict the future (In Deut 18, God indicates he's sending a prophet... but He also commanded, in Deut 13:1, not to listen to such people. And prophets are notoriously difficult to tell apart from soothsayers. But anyway...), talk to the dead and so on. But you skipped the context of those instructions, which was, don't be like the Ammonites and Moabites. Who were institutionally corrupt, and as adults worshiped and embraced the arcane, and rejected God.

The question is, does waving a toy wand, or shooting at zombies in a computer game, talking to a departed relative while paying your respects at the graveside and so on, qualify as behavior of the kind that the Ammonites and Moabites would've encouraged?

And that depends on how literally you take the Bible, AND how you interpret the rest of the Bible.

I know some Christians who are so phobic about sinning and take Deuteronomy so seriously that they won't use any financial services on the basis that they are all tainted by people predicting the future (derivatives trading), spread betting, usury, and who knows what else... and they've even looked seriously at Sha'ria banks! To my mind this is a bit like an arachnophobe running into the road to avoid a spider. Clearly they've had a logic bypass.

Play is play as far as kids are concerned, and this is explained in the Bible. Corinthians 13: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

Kids play at being doctors and nurses but it doesn't indicate that they will want to pursue any kind of career in medicine. How many Thomas the Tank Engine fans show a real interest in being engine drivers when they grow up?

How many kids who play at wizards and witches leave school with a serious intention to study the occult? When the Bible speaks of sorcery, it is talking about THOSE kinds of activities - a genuine, earnest and ADULT interest in the occult, not some kid waving a stick around pretending he's Harry Potter.

Many Liberals think that playing soldiers or Cowboys and Indians represents (from my experience) one or more of the following: sadism, masochism, cultural imperialism, racism, gun fetishism of the Pyle-from-"Full Metal Jacket" variety, and other things too ludicrous to mention. So, they don't want their kids playing with guns. So they're pro-gun-control. And so on. How can you be sure you're not making something out of nothing, like they do?

Mal when I was a kid I played with Ouji boards and seances, etc., and I survived, but that doesn't make it not dangerous.

Have you ever been threatened by a demon? I don't think there are many running around but they are real and I'm not sure how culpuble kids are because of their age, but I just wouldn't mess with it. It's inviting in evil spirits and if there are any around to accept the invitation, they will. Teen depression and suicide...has that gone up at all since the Potter books?

Sorcery is dangerous stuff. And I don't think it will be long before certain events that we were warned about in the Bible will be taking place, and then there WILL be a lot of demons flooding the place.

It always amazes me how people say they believe the Bible but absolutely reject demons. Just because there aren't that many around right now is no reason to allow your kids to play with them. Kids will be getting in so much trouble all by themselves.

Jen,

“You wouldn’t mess with it”... but you did as a kid, right? You might think you did, but a lot depends on how you went about it, and what you were trying to achieve at the time.

I had friends who at school did ouija sessions with a proper mid-20th century board made from planks from a coffin, a deconsecrated communion goblet, and they were using incantations from a 16th century grimoire that had to be requested four weeks in advance from the public library so it could be shipped down from the city.

THAT is messing about with the occult. THAT is sorcery. Because they really knew what they were doing and knew what they wanted to do, they were at great risk.

I agree it’s not completely safe even when it’s play-acting. Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and in the same fashion, it’s possible for play-acting kids to actually invoke the supernatural by accident. But you’re more likely to see a kid pull a parallel park via a handbrake-turn on his first day in Drivers’ Ed after playing driving games for years.

Demons are real, but so are straw men. I don’t think they’re that bothered about kids playing around, for the same reason that the New Testament talks about children being innocent and, well, childish... sin isn’t about the action, it’s the rebellion that makes the difference.

Kids without boundaries (like most of the kids of today) are more likely to grow up to be hedonistic, nihilistic, self-obsessed, depressed, suicidal, anorexic/bulimic, and sex-obsessed - for one good reason.

The adults around them, encourage them to think that’s what the real world should be like.

When I was growing up, most kids didn’t cheek their teachers, or their parents, or the police; they didn’t swear in public; they didn’t think they had “rights” and knew less about sex than they knew about marriage... and they expected to have to work when they left school. Liberalism teaches them that the world owes them a living and they can do as they please.

The first time I was aware a kid could really shout at their parents and get away with it, was through watching soap operas and sitcoms from the United States and Australia in the 80s. Eventually, kids over here started assuming it must be okay, so they copied it.

Their behavior changed as a consequence of the society around them, reinforcing a bad idea as if it was both normal and realistic to believe in that idea. Society might not condemn Harry Potter, but it certainly doesn’t yet reinforce the idea that flying on a broomstick is “natural”.

Mal you make a lot of great points, but bottom line, demons want to enter people. And an invitation is an invitation, whether it’s just a jesture or whether it’s on royal paper with a presidential seal. Demons don’t enter because they’re bothered by kids, they enter because they’re looking for homes. Any kind of invitation on the front lawn is dangerous.

I think me and my girlfriends got such a thrill out of doing seances and Ouija boards was because it gave us a bit of a rush, deep down we knew we shouldn’t be going there, and we giggled and did it anyway.

I don’t think there’s that many demons around, but I do believe they can be summoned. And they’d be more than happy to answer and find a warm invitation waiting for them.

It’s dangerous. Lol, that’s my opinion and I’m sticking with it. And I’m not without experience in dealing with one. Never want to deal with one again.

In that case, I'll bow to your experience.

We'll have to agree to disagree, but I do so on the premise that what my friends did was dangerous, and what you and your girlfriends did was possibly dangerous (assuming you were doing it 'properly' and not just messing about pretending to be in Sabrina or Bewitched etc), but pretending to be Harry Potter and using the spells from Harry Potter isn't dangerous. Harry Potter's faux Latin spells are to true occultism, what Scooby Doo is to real world forensic science.

Tragically self-deluded characters who damn themselves through hubris is a cornerstone of Western the Christian morality and the culture built around that faith. you only have to look at Macbeth, Doctor Faustus, Dorian Gray, Victor Frankenstein, Henry Jekyll, Frank Cotton (in Clive Barker's "The Hellbound Heart"), Darth Vader, and of course Tom Marvolo Riddle to see this.

In purely literary terms the only difference I can see between Harry Potter (which is described as "dangerous" by some Christians) and Doctor Faustus (which is not) is the perspective through which the tragic fall is observed.

In Faustus we see the Doctor, a lowly commoner with an exceptional intellect, frustrated by the limitations of his class and education; an angel and a devil whisper into his ears, he listens to the devil, trades his soul for power, does nothing remotely worthwhile with his new abilities, and in the end he is torn apart.

In Harry Potter we see Tom Riddle - a lowly commoner with an exceptional intellect, who is frustrated, tempted, and seduced by the promise of immortality. So he sells his soul, and achieves near-immortality - but then he squanders his talents on pointless vendettas and scaring people, and eventually he's torn apart.

In pure plot terms, Riddle IS Faustus.

Doctor Faustus withstood centuries of religious / moral panic, and is now largely approved of by church scholars for its moral message despite the humor and very explicit descriptions of demon summoning.

JK Rowling decided to contrast Tom's bad choices to Harry's good choices, and tell the story through the eyes of Tom's chief victim over seven weighty volumes. To my mind that makes it a far more effective and engaging tale, than simply allowing us to observe Tom's self-deluded descent into ruin. I'm pretty sure history will judge the Harry Potter story as a being a profoundly Christian one, irrespective of the magical backdrop, and people will deride the condemnation of the magical elements as trite - especially given that other tales with an overtly Christian influence, like the Narnia stories, have managed to put in magic and fun and talking beasts and the like without attracting the same moral panic.

I have to admit, I’ve read Revelation many times and it terrifies me - although not for the reasons that you’d think.

I can grasp the fundamentals of what Revelation is talking about - but whenever I try to dig deeper into it, I can almost hear a voice inside, saying that this Revelation wasn’t meant for the likes of me to understand.

I don’t know what to make of that.

I stripped Dad’s washing machine down when I was ten, just to figure out how it worked... I felt no guilt dismantling it, a sense of triumph when I found a golf tee blocking the pump, and a bit sheepish when I realised I couldn’t clip the hoses back on so it was still in bits on the floor when he got home. But I never felt terrified.

When I start to apply a bit of analysis to Revelation, I can only explain it as, you know how your stomach turns, when as a kid you’re about to do something you know is wrong and you’re utterly convinced there’s no way you’ll ever get away with it.

I can’t think of any other situation in adulthood, where I’ve had that deep sense of “pre-emptive guilt” merely for THINKING about doing something.

The Bible warns of false prophets and listening to the wrong voices, and I don’t know where that voice comes from. But every other time I’ve had that gut feeling, it’s been steering me away from doing something that I know is wrong.

And THAT is what terrifies me.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.