Posted on 11/21/2010 7:43:56 PM PST by bibletruth
you need me to copy and paste for you? here is the summary... confiscate their land...force them out of Europe... despise them...hate them.
Who should we believe, you, or Jesus, who said, "Your faith has saved you."
Go away. Please.
The general problem with the “all” passages is that most often we superimpose a modern mathematical set concept of “all possible individuals,” whereas the context of the passages often points to “all of a class of individuals.” In the Timothy passages you cite, believers are to pray for Kings and other powerful people, even though they were often bitter enemies of the Church. Paul is saying we should pray for all such, because God exclude no particular socioeconomic or ethnic class of people from salvation, and because the salvation of the politically powerful could lead to peaceful lives for Christians. We know that “all” is not “absolutely all” because by the time Paul says this, many have already died and gone to hell, and some still alive (the surviving Pharisees) had been told by Jesus directly they had committed unpardonable sin and would not be saved. So “all” fails as a mathematically absolute term, but it does quite well as a Hebraism encompassing classes of people, reinforcing the Gospel theme that God would act to save across all manner of class boundaries, because he did not care about the distinctions we make among ourselves, but would have mercy on whosoever he would have mercy.
No one, but Jesus, is perfect. What you would need to do to discredit their theology using their personal errors is to show that their theology produced those errors, how it did so, and that everyone who adopts those positions acquires the same personal defects, and that everyone who doesn’t adopt those positions doesn’t have those same personal defects.
Good luck with that.
And you know what it means when a Calvinist wishes you good luck...
If someone gives you a gift, is it yours, or theirs?
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9.
Yup.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that all who believed in Him may have life eternal..."
Doesn't say "So that all who God chose over everyone else," it says so that all who believe, all who have faith. I've heard all the pointless Calvinassed twistings of scripture and I don't want to hear them again. You calling Christ a liar does not uplift or honor God, so just cut the crap.
According to the Calvinists we are so vile we cannot even make one right choice. So, who did you kill today?
Oh, you chose not to kill anyone? How can you do that?! Calvin says you're incapable of making the right choice (even though God says you can in scripture!). Just go screw with the head of some impressionable punk, I'll just put you where you belong if you pester me any more, pus-slinger.
;-/
No, I just showed you that they taught contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Their hated for the Jewish people was not a personal error, it was their flawed teaching to the church. What you should learn from knowing this about them (which you obviously already knew) is that it reveals something very wrong with their hearts (how can you say you love God who you have not seen and hate...) very, very wrong. Discern their character, it is not hidden in their many pamphlets and publications and then ask...should I really be putting so much confidence in this man? Do I want to follow this guy?
Yeah...what he said. :o)
If it doesn’t seek you, you won’t seek it.
If you do seek it, it is already seeking you.
If you find it, you get to keep it.
If you have it, it will transform your life.
If you don’t have it, you won’t care that you don’t have it, until its too late.
Makes sense all right, but mainly because that’s what the Bible teaches. I respectfully submit that TULIP may be what you surmise by cherry-picking passages while ignoring others, but such an approach to Bible study is no way to come to an understanding of what the Bible teaches.
God seeks everyone; Jesus died for everyone, and it is up to each individual to choose whether to accept His gift by accepting Him as Savior and Lord, or following the broad path that leads to destruction.
And how can one read the Bible and not see that our salvation through Christ Jesus is eternal (Perseverance of the Saints).
But as far as the doctrine of Limited Atonement is concerned, I'll just leave you with this -
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:9)
“...comes in the context of reward for ministry”?
That’s not the context of the passage. Paul was humbling himself before God and feared for his salvation should he not fulfill his mission.
Of course you have no problem with these passages, you just ignore their intended meaning and prescribe a meaning that fits your beliefs. The Bible is a Catholic book that’s been around way before Calvin and like any other Protestant sect you interpret it how ever you please.
Jesus Christ Himself said, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 7:21
“Why do you ask me what is good? One there who is good, and he is GOD. But if you will enter into life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.” “Which commandments?” the man asked. Jesus said, “Never murder. Never commit adultery. Never steal. Never give false testimony. Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.”
Matthew 19:17-19
These verses clearly have said that if we do not obey the commandments, we will not have (eternal) life.
So if a person who thinks he is “saved”, and then lies or commits adultery,
how then does he reconcile his actions with Matthew 19:17-19 and Revelation 21:7-8 and 21:27?
Jesus did cure the infirmed man at the pool in John 5:1-9, and later He told him in verse 14, “See, you are well! SIN NO MORE, THAT NOTHING WORSE BEFALL YOU.” Does that sound like, “once saved, always saved”?
Here is yet another example, the woman caught in adultery in John 8:1-10. Jesus had prevented her from being stoned to death, and in verse 11 He said, “Neither do I condemn you; GO, AND DO NOT SIN AGAIN.” Again, Jesus cautioned, not to sin again.
What is the message from these two examples from John 5 and 8? What if both sinned again? In the first case it would seem that indeed, SOMETHING WORSE WOULD BEFALL THE MAN and in the second case it would be a clear disobedience by the woman to a direct command of Jesus. I repeat, does that sound like, “once saved, always saved”? No way!
Then there is Rom 11:22, “See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity towards those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD towards you if you abide in His goodness; OTHERWISE YOU WILL ALSO BE CUTOFF.”
“Here is the patience of the Saints, who keep the commandments of GOD, and the faith of Jesus.”
Revelation 14:12
If we are “saved” already then what is the purpose of having to obey the commandments?
But you are stuck with your beliefs right? I’ll take my chances with the Church Christ founded on St. Peter, not on Calvin.
“I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so.”
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.
Gargantua, you are a Christian right? You do not speak the words of Christian love. Even if I am your enemy, you must still love me. If you are not a Christian, say what you will. But if you are, we are brothers, and nothing in any Scripture gives you the right to address me with such venomous language. Furthermore, you may be in violation of your terms of agreement with FR. I thought true Christians kept their promises. You know full well this is not the kind of conversation this site was designed to promote.
Nevertheless, since I am still free to write a response, despite your protestations, I will. Please feel free to “put me where I belong” afterword. I will not hold it against you.
Calvinists believe John 3:16. All who believe in Jesus will have eternal life in Him. No Calvinist doubts that. The question is not whether those who believe will be saved. They will. The question, raised and answered by Scripture, is whether belief is even possible to one whom God has not chosen. However, since you say you know all about the election passages in Scripture, I have no need to point them out to you. What you do with them is between you and the God who wrote them. Not me.
As for your misconception about total depravity, yes it is true that on any given day, we tend inwardly toward murders and lusts, just as James teaches:
“Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” James 4:1-4
So your question is fair. Why do we not descend to expressing the full measure of the evil that resides within us? The answer is simple. God won’t let us:
“Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.” Psalm 76:10
He has his plan, and he will not let either you or I do so much evil that his plan would fail. He has many children he is bringing into his ark of safety, Jesus. When all whom he has chosen are on board, the flood of judgment will come. But not a moment before his plan calls for it. Even the worst deeds among humankind do no more than advance His righteous plan:
“For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.” Acts 4:27-28
Peace,
SR
Well, I certainly admire your self-confidence. I try to obey God and constantly urge others to do so as well. Yet I have this defect, that though my spirit takes me in the right direction, my flesh gets in the way, and all the good things I would love to do, I don’t get them all done, and all the bad things I would avoid, I end up doing ... sometimes. Happily, I do not have any fear that I am on and off and on God’s books day in day out, because perfect love casts out fear. God is better than we make him out to be. My expectation is that God knew all this about me when he rescued me from the dark path.
And believe me, there was a very clear turning point for me. As a Calvinist, I do not encourage people to rest in the belief that some specific religious ceremony created a condition where they can do as they please and will still be saved in the end. The Scriptures do not teach that. Calvinism doesn’t teach that. The both of them do teach that when a person is born again in Christ, they become a new creation, a new and different person who loves and seeks to obey Christ and the Father, and that those thus reborn will in fact inherit eternal life.
If you could only know what I was before that moment, you would understand the miracle of redemption God has worked in my life. For me to deny the reality of such blessing would be perilously close to blasphemy, a denial of the faith, so dramatic and obvious was the working of his mercy in my life. I will never renounce it, not for any inducement, and least of all for some vague and unsubstantiated genealogical claim of a Petrine Pedigree being made by a relatively modern denominational group. Go back to the “stem cell” church from which we both came. That is the unity we should be finding with each other, in fulfillment of the prayer of Christ. I long for that day, don’t you?
I appreciate your gentle tone, but I do not think Calvinism is dismissive of any Scripture. I know that as a Calvinist, I am open to any persuasion of Scripture, provided I am not asked to ignore other Scriptures bearing on the same topic. And I have yet to hear anyone provide proof that God will fail to accomplish all that he plans to do, including his plan to have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
Part of the problem is that we are judging this from the perch of clear dual sovereignty in church state relations. Back in their day, they saw no special distinction between the two, and it did lead to error in judgment, Calvin with Servantus in particular. But really, it is difficult to argue their heart motive as hatred. I understand your reasoning from John, but I am not so willing as you to try and peer inside their heart and see what I think only God can really see.
For example, Gargantua here has been very hard with me. It feels like hatred, but I don’t really know. I can dispute his words and teachings, and I do, but I cannot judge the inner workings of his heart. That’s above my pay grade.
So Calvin and Luther to me are likewise men of their times. They saw the world the way they were conditioned to see it. The errors they made, you have not shown to be relevant to the specific teaching being questioned on this thread. Furthermore, you have not even shown the teaching was unique to them, which is essential to your approach. Arguably, the Calvinist framework, at least in some incipient form, can be traced back to Augustine, and frankly I find it stands quite well on it’s own in the Biblical text. Thus, while I respect the contributions of the reformers, I no more follow them than I follow you. I follow the word, wherever it leads, and it does lead to roughly the same place it led them, at least with respect to the doctrines of grace.
“...some vague and unsubstantiated genealogical claim of a Petrine Pedigree”?
Apostolic succession is not vague, illusionary or merely an artificial construct. It a divine assurance that we have an authentic authoritative claim to Christ’s teaching. After all, the Bible’s canon wasn’t finalized until 398 A.D. yet the Church was already active spreading the Gospel message as Christ had commanded and had gone through 15 Popes most of which were martyrs. Christ said that He would be with His Church for all time and that includes the 1500 years or so before Calvin. I can’t fathom why Christ would wait 1500 years until His correct doctrine for salvation would emerge?
And it is certainly not “unsubstantiated” although I am sure you would like it to be. Throwing stones at the 2000 year old Church will not bring it down. Now to answer the all important question, “Who has the authority?” In order to have only one truth, it is necessary to have only one authority. The truth cannot be divided up. St Augustine understood succession when he said,
“Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among these Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of his representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven (Matt 16:19).”
Sermons 295,2, 391 A.D.
“What they found in the Church they kept; what they learned, they taught; what they received from the fathers, they handed on to the sons.”
Against Julian, 2,10,33, 421 A.D.
Continuity is pretty important and it authenticates our beliefs. Saint Athanasius, in a letter to Serapion, 359 A.D., said ,”But what is also to the point, let us note that the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.”
I consider that succinct and a clear validation of our faith.
We are saved when we use the free will God gave us to elect to believe in His Son Jesus, just as did that sinner hanging on the cross next to Jesus.
Christ didn't say to him, "Surely I tell you, this day you will be with me in Paradise: My Father has chosen you but not that guy hanging next to you."
No, Christ said: "Surely I tell you, this day you will be with me in Paradise: your faith has saved you."
See the difference? I told you not to pester me about this any more, but you just had to come back with your pious garbage because you Calvinists just can't help yourselves. You'd rather believe that God specially chose you out of everyone else in the world, and it is this despicable conceit and lack of humility; this PRIDE that makes me ill.
God is a jealous God. God would prefer that none should perish. The Bible tells us this in so many words. Why do some perish anyway? Because they choose not to believe. Go away from me. Get thee behind me. Go screw with the head of some impressionable punk who doesn't know the difference bewteen what the Bible actually says and your evil, self-aggrandizing spin on its meaning.
Last warning. I will pull out the whole fullisade of rebuttal and condemnation if you persist. Scripture says "be ready to answer when asked why you have the hope that you do in Christ." It does NOT say, "Go try to sell your man-made prideful piety to even the already saved."
Get lost, and take your lies with you.
;-\ on the
Some verses have already been mentioned, and I'm heading out the door and have no time, but another is 2Pet3:9:
...He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence.
Calvists have to either ignore that verse or else go through some extreme mental gymnastics to explain it away. However, it is in perfect harmony with the non-Calvist view, as well as the rest of Scripture, which teaches that God offers redemption to all through Jesus, and that most won't accept it. In addition to those who reject Christ outright, many will acknowledge Jesus as their Savior but aren't willing to serve Him as their Lord, i.e., they treat Him as sort of a spiritual genie in a bottle who is there to bail them out when things are tough.
When I survey the differing schools of theology it seems to break down to Calvinism on one hand and varying degrees of unbelief on the other.
Correct, but I thought you were a member of Religion Forum Anonymous. You can’t stay away, eh? ;-]
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