Mary and the Eucharist

Columbia Magazine, The Knights of Columbus ^ | November 2010 | Archbishop Sean O'Malley, OFM Cap

[Alex Murphy]

....the body of Christ we receive in Communion is the same body of Christ that Mary gave to us at Bethlehem....When we say yes to God, we allow his grace to be fruitful, to break into our history. When we say no, his plan is thwarted, the world is deprived of grace and creation is impoverished. What would have happened had Mary said no to God’s invitation? Would we still be awaiting a Messiah?....The pope affirms that Mary must have been present at the eucharistic celebrations of the first generation of Christians, who were devoted to the Mass which they called "the breaking of the Bread."

If you cannot reach the article on the KofC homepage, you can reach Google's 11/09/2010 snapshot of it here.

[reagandemocrat]

>>>In an episode of the old TV show “All in the Family,” Archie Bunker, a great contemporary theologian, was having an argument with his son-in-law, Meathead. Archie made one of his anti-Semitic remarks and Meathead immediately reacted by saying, “Archie, remember that Jesus was Jewish.” To which Archie retorted: “Yes, but only on his mother’s side.”<<<

Now that there is funny.

[reagandemocrat]

BTW Alex—

Excellent article.

[KC_Lion]

Bump for later

[smvoice]

When that wafer is turned into the true and real body of Christ, does Mary have a true and real presence in that wafer?

[Alex Murphy]

When that wafer is turned into the true and real body of Christ, does Mary have a true and real presence in that wafer?

None, at least none outright stated in the article.

[Claud]

Alex, great detective work there. The Knights of Columbus believe in the Real Presence—who woulda thunk it.

Yes, in fact, the body that was formed in Mary’s womb is the same body that is on the altar. This is not news to Christianity, except those who have forgotten it.

[bagadonutz]

Very well thought out.

[bagadonutz]

Very well thought out.

[Claud]

It’s Christ’s body, not Mary’s body in the Eucharist, although it would take an extraordinary ignorance of biology not to see an obvious connection there. Particularly since the Holy Spirit has no body to give him, so Christ’s body was physically derived from the body of Mary alone.

And it may be a fine point, but we do not say Christ is present IN the “wafer” after the consecration. Rather, there is no more “wafer”. What is on the altar is 100% Christ and nothing else—the substance of the “wafer” is annihilated entirely and only its accidental characteristics remain.

Ugh..”wafer”. I hate even using that word in this context, it’s so disrespectful. At least call it “bread” if you can’t stoop to saying “Communion”.

[smvoice]

The sacrament is the body and blood of the Lord that has come to us through Mary’s body and through her saying yes to God.

This is what I'm curious about. He was part of her body, just as our bodies are part of our parents bodies. If His body is real and true in that wafer, then her presence is in that Eucharist. And when that wafer is changed into His body, her presence is in that wafer too. One-half of the substance of His body; half from the Holy Spirit and half from Mary.

My question is, does the Catholic Church teach its members this, or is this just something that isn't considered by Catholics who believe that Christ is real and present in the Eucharist?

[smvoice]

I just read your post after I had posted mine.

And it may be a fine point, but we do not say Christ is present IN the “wafer” after the consecration. Rather, there is no more “wafer”. What is on the altar is 100% Christ and nothing else—the substance of the “wafer” is annihilated entirely and only its accidental characteristics remain.

THis does not seem to be an answer. This just explains what is done during the Eucharist. 100% Christ is 50% Mary.

[Claud]

My question is, does the Catholic Church teach its members this, or is this just something that isn't considered by Catholics who believe that Christ is real and present in the Eucharist?

I am no theologian, and perhaps some other FReeper could answer it better.

But we believe the Eucharist is body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. Mary had her own soul, so unless we are willing to postulate two souls in it, then no, the Eucharist is not Mary the same way that it is Christ. Also, we adore the Eucharist as God, and Mary is a creature without any divinity whatsoever. If she were in it, we would be guilty of idolatry.

However, I have heard expounded, and the article above touches on it as well, the connection between Mary's body and the body of Christ. He owes His body to her Fiat in a crucial way--there is certainly some mystical connection there, though what it is I can't even begin to say.

[smvoice]

Thank you very much for your post. It was exactly what I was trying to get at, but from an outside-of-the-RCC perspective.

If she were in it, we would be guilty of idolatry.

This being one thought.

[Claud]

This just explains what is done during the Eucharist. 100% Christ is 50% Mary.

Well, actually, maybe not, because where would His other 50% come from? There was no human male involved.

But at any rate, we are not just bodies but body-soul combinations, so whatever Mary contributed to the body of Christ, His human soul and divinity certainly did not come from her.

[Hegewisch Dupa]

Trust me, it will degenerate into “cracker” once some in this forum run out of ‘ideas’ and are cornered into having nothing to offer but insulting language.

[Claud]

You are most welcome!

This being one thought.

Eh, what's that? I don't quite follow.

[Augustinian monk]

Yes he was quite a theologian:

It ain’t supposed to make sense; it’s faith. Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe. - Archie Bunker

[Alex Murphy]

Trust me, it will degenerate into “cracker” once some in this forum run out of ‘ideas’ and are cornered into having nothing to offer but insulting language.

Congratulations - the thread just degenerated. Did you have any (other) ideas that you wanted to offer besides the insulting language?

[Kolokotronis]

"Well, actually, maybe not, because where would His other 50% come from? There was no human male involved.

But at any rate, we are not just bodies but body-soul combinations, so whatever Mary contributed to the body of Christ, His human soul and divinity certainly did not come from her."

The Nicene Fathers explained this nearly 1700 years ago, Claud (I'm not showing off; the Greek is important to an understanding of what happened):

καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν Μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων, Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο· τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν, καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς παρθένου, καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα,

The specific answer to what the Theotokos "added" is this, but only also from the Holy Spirit:

καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς παρθένου, καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα