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To: TurkeyLurkey

What James is saying in 2:14 is that if it is a faith without works (works = a lifestyle of obedience to God), it is a DEAD faith—that is, it is not the true faith in Jesus Christ—it is faith in something or someone else, thus DEAD.


Thanks for trying to help, but when i said (I do not know how to put it all together )I was referring to the idea that if a man does not have any works how can he really even know for sure that he has any faith?

When i first started going to church back in the early 70s i would pass up people along the road that maybe needed help,

(i sure could not be late for church, what an idiot )

This was due to the fact that i was putting my faith in the church instead of God and doing what God tells us to do, my fault even though this was encouraged by the church.

Before i started going to church i was always stopping to help people.

I was also referring to the fact that people will say that James and Paul had a disagreement on the subject, no they did not have any disagreement on it, they were talking about it from two different angles.

Paul was saying that people who were going around being workers might be just doing it for to be seen of men, so he says that works with out faith is nothing, even many unbelievers can and do the same thing, socialism for instance. works is giving of yourself, not giving of some one else.

On the other hand James was saying that some one saying they have faith does not make it so, its just words, if some one has faith it will show some where in their works, it won,t be in big red letters but it will be there.

Faith and works are one where our salvation is concerned, helping some one who needs help with out fanfare is a sign of faith and most people do not even call that works.

In fact the real works of faith is rarely seen in the news because it was not done to be seen of men.

The most important commandment.
The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” (NIV, Mark 12:28-31


131 posted on 11/07/2010 5:14:50 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: ravenwolf

“I was referring to the idea that if a man does not have any works how can he really even know for sure that he has any faith?”

Yes, I believe God is saying through James that if a man does not have any works (again, meaning obedient lifestyle), then he does not have the true faith, he has a useless, dead faith.

Yes, Paul and James said the same thing, just differently.
They are not going to contradict each other because God is the same ultimate author.

v. 18
1) Faith w/o works is dead
2) Faith is shown by works [by the life that is lived]
So, if you are truly reckoned righteous (justified), works (obedience) will prove your faith.

v. 19
1) The demons know God is God & they tremble
So, it’s not enough just to intellectually accept the fact that God exists, or Jesus saves you.

v. 20
1)Faith w/o works (obedience) is useless

To me, the key to understanding the passage is to understand the meaning of the word “justify” when connected with “works.”

v. 21 - 24
1) Abraham was justified by works when he offered up Isaac.
The word “justify” means to declare righteous; it also means to show to be righteous; in this context, it means to SHOW to be righteous.
[And since God clearly says that a person is saved (i.e., justified, sanctified, & glorified) by grace, through faith, and not works.]

2) Faith was working with his works, & the result is faith was perfected.
- Abraham’s works completed his faith.
- Abraham worked out what he believed; through his obedience he showed his faith to be real.

3) Abraham was justified by faith, that is, DECLARED righteous by God in Gen. 15

4) v. 24, “You see that a man is justified by works, and not be faith alone.
- “Justified” in the sense of SHOWN to be righteous; his deeds (obedience) proved his faith.

So, Abraham’s and Rahab’s (v. 25) obedience proves their faith.

There is going to be a time when all men’s deeds will be judged, Romans 2:6-13.

And re: your final point,

yes, love being the greatest commandment and named first in the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5, is certainly one work of obedience that is dependent on His grace and power, that proves a person belongs to Jesus. And how often we fall short of loving the way Jesus loved—with a person’s highest good in mind.


144 posted on 11/07/2010 6:00:42 AM PST by TurkeyLurkey
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