Replies

That's not what Kolo said. He said man's sovereignty has its origin in God. St. Paul says so much when he urges that everyone obey all earthly authority, because all authority is (i.e. originates) from God (and is delegated to appointed rulers and princes).

I would agree with this statement to the extent that God did indeed grant some sovereignty to man in relation to other creations. Without reference to anything Kolo said, man's sovereignty is limited and man's will never supersedes God's.

Deuteronomy 30:14 states that we can do what is necessary to be saved (although Paul chooses to misquote it in Romans 10:8).

In my translation I don't see any conflict in word or intent:

Deut. 30:14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Rom. 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

Paul's correct starting point is that it is God Who gives us our faith and that by faith we are saved. He goes on to say "10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.". Paul is very clear in his teachings that this Christian heart is not something that we earn through works or because we are "good" enough. No, Paul teaches that faith is an unmerited gift from God.

FK: Our free will is completely subjugated to His free will

Does that include Satan's will as well? Is Satan merely doing God's will?

satan's will is certainly subjugated to God's, as we see at the beginning of Job. But I think whether we should characterize satan as "doing God's will" is a matter of semantics. In one sense "yes" because nothing can overrule God's will and everything that God wills, happens. In another sense, "no" because of course God hates all sin and is the author of none of it.

FK: Whenever different, His will overrides ours every time

So, then, we are to give praise and thanks to God for every Holocaust-like event because it was his will??? You've got to be kidding, FK! How many other Protestants share this "core belief" of yours?

Naturally if we took the time to give individual thanks for all that is due God, then that is all we would be doing every waking minute. So, Christians understandably focus on giving thanks for those things that are easily understood. But of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't give thanks for what is painful. Paul gives us a perfect example:

2 Cor. 12:7-10 : 7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

As far as other Protestants, I don't know how many would agree with the way I am expressing these ideas, but I know that every Reformer would agree with my sentiments that nothing trumps the will of God, and that whatever God wills is done.

And those who will not [be with God in eternal life] are those who did not have faith (because he didn't give it to them specifically so that they may be "lost"!) and for that they will spend eternity in hell, punished for sins they had to commit, all for the pleasure and glory of this God!

Absolutely, couldn't have said it better myself! Isn't it glorious? :)

FK: Ultimately, the creation of every person will bring glory to God, but that will manifest itself in very different ways.

And since all do his will (because, remember, he overrides theirs if it is different form his), some are destined to do evil and some are destined to do good; no matter how you turn it around it is still God's doing (or overriding), FK, be it good or evil. Is this another Protestant "core belief"?

I still disagree that everything is God's "doing" just because He wills it. For God to get what He wants, many many times He simply does nothing at all. I don't consider that the same as "doing". Now, if evil was a part of the plan and God "injected" evil into a person thus forcing the desired result then you would be right. But I say it doesn't work like that. We produce all the evil all on our lonesome.

From your statement it looks like the general topic you are raising is predestination. If so, then as far as being a Protestant core belief goes I would say not, since I think it is closely related to the heart of the disagreement between Reformers and Arminians.

Without reference to anything Kolo said, man's sovereignty is limited and man's will never supersedes God's.

Then Judas really didn't betray Jesus, he only acted according to God's will?

In my translation I don't see any conflict in word or intent: Deut. 30:14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

The Hebrew version says "so that you may do it." And what is the "it " in this case? Paul, however, misquotes Deuteronomy 30:14, and introjects faith in it to support his novel theology.

The problem is your Bible version (NIV), FK, which is notorious for ad libing and "doctoring" the Bible to fit Protestant doctrine. In this case, the KJV, English Standard Version, Young's Literal Version, etc. agree with the Hebrew. The Catholic NAB version, strangely says "observe it" thereby translating the Qal as a Niphal! But the NIV choice (obey it) is not in the lexicon for Hebrew asah.

Paul's correct starting point is that it is God Who gives us our faith and that by faith we are saved.

But there is no faith mentioned in the Deuteronomy 30:14. Paul added it. We can's say he was using the Septuagint, because the Septuagint also says "do it" (poiein).

Paul is very clear in his teachings that this Christian heart is not something that we earn through works or because we are "good" enough.

But that's not what Deuteronomy 30 is all about, FK. Paul alters the holiest of Jewish scriptures (the Torah) for his own doctrinal purpose. That's fraud.

I hope you realize that this is untenable. If it is merely semantics, then it is insignificant (something like Clinton's "is"), a way to wiggle out of a logical corner. You can't serve two masters, not even the devil. If God is in charge than what's with the final "battle" between the good and evil? A show?

Naturally if we took the time to give individual thanks for all that is due God, then that is all we would be doing every waking minute.

And what is not due to God?

So, Christians understandably focus on giving thanks for those things that are easily understood. But of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't give thanks for what is painful. Paul gives us a perfect example...2 Cor 12:10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Do I take it then that your Church gives thanks to God for the tsunamis, the Holocaust, and the like? Do you thank him when someone falls ill or dies? It's funny that I find the Protestant attitude as a direct opposite of showing any delight in being weak, or giving thanks to God for persecutions, insults, and so on.

So, when do Reformers celebrate the Andrea Yates Day?

Absolutely, couldn't have said it better myself! Isn't it glorious? :)

No wonder, FK, that Calivnsits make up only 10% of Baptists...

I still disagree that everything is God's "doing" just because He wills it.

LOL! Does that include the Bible?

Now, if evil was a part of the plan and God "injected" evil into a person thus forcing the desired result then you would be right.

Evidently you must have missed the passages where God intentionally sends evil and confusing spirits into someone to get what he wants.

But I say it doesn't work like that.

Oh yes, that makes all the difference...