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To: Belteshazzar; metmom
Herein the burial and the descent into hell are differentiated as distinct articles, and we simply believe that after the burial the entire person, God and man, descended into hell, conquered the devil, destroyed hell’s power, and took from the devil all his might. We are not to concern ourselves with exalted and acute speculations about how this occurred.

Thanks for your answer. I can't say that I have any problem with this approach as it seems to not wish to address the issue. That is perfectly fine. I fully agree that burial and descent are distinct occurrences and that His descent resulted in a demonstrable victory.

What you stated in your post is essentially the Roman Catholic position (I don’t know if you know this). See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, American Edition, pp. 164, paragraph 633. On this, please note that in the same volume, paragraph 635, footnote 484, that John 5:25 is cited as proof that Christ preached the “Good News” to those in this supposedly (not!) intermediate place (wherein is the so-called limbus patrum).

I have to disagree with you here as I categorically deny any and all notions of purgatory or limbo. While I would agree with parts of the Catechism concerning this subject I disagree that anyone was converted "in hell". Once physical death occurs, it's over. Since the resurrection those who die and are saved go immediately into the presence of the Lord. In addition, I would agree with you that John 5:25 is used completely out of context in the Catechism. It is obvious that Jesus was speaking of the spiritually dead.

5,175 posted on 12/11/2010 4:48:18 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper

Forest Keeper, I can’t quite agree with you when you say that you have no problem with “this approach as it seems to not wish to address the issue.” What you are noting (quite understandably) as the Lutheran confessors not wishing to address an issue as fully as we might wish (we insatiably and foolishly curious human beings) is really an unwillingness to explain more fully something that God Himself has given us only minimal information about. They assumed that if God Himself saw fit to give only this much information, then that was sufficient for our faith, comfort, and understanding.

What you are seeing, again, is real application of “sola scriptura,” that is, a willingness to teach as divine doctrine only that which the Scriptures clearly and unequivocally state, and not an inch either less or more. They leave it open to everyone to speculate - as we all do - but to understand that such thoughts, finally, are just that, speculation, not doctrine. Rome loves to fill in the blanks God has left and call it doctrine/dogma, thinking that it is somehow their obligation to do so ... when it is not! And so, to a great extent, do many of the Protestant denominations also think. Lutherans, on the other hand, do not think they have to explain God’s motives for doing or not doing whatever. They take seriously their confession that God is omniscient and all-wise, and they are not. Their duty before Him is to say, “Yea and amen,” the pot giving glory to the Potter.

FK also wrote:
“I have to disagree with you here as I categorically deny any and all notions of purgatory or limbo.”

I am sorry, I had no intention of ascribing to you that you agree with these ideas that were clearly outside of what you had said. I only meant to point out that in general your approach to this subject was similar to that of Rome. Thank you for clarifying what I may have obscured. You are quite right, “once physical death has occured, it’s over.”

As you yourself appear to note, we are not far apart.


5,176 posted on 12/11/2010 6:33:01 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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