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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; stfassisi; metmom; MarkBsnr
"If the fullness of the Church is found in "one bishop, surrounded by his monastics, clergy and laity all centered on the Eucharist" then there are extra layers in between God and His people."

Not in the ecclesiology of The Church. What is described is the Body of Christ, not a layered system. It is the "ecclesia", the assembly of the People.

"With this approach the relationship appears far less personal and direct. Or, the personal relationship is really with people, present or departed, instead of with God."

Certainly we have these relationships among ourselves and very much so with the saints. This isn't the end purpose of what The Church teaches, though it is very nice, rather The Church teaches that within the ecclesia at the Divine Liturgy, we partake of the true Body and Blood of Christ and thus, in a way we certainly don't understand, we become part of the Body of Christ, not as to God's essence, since such a union occurs only among the hypostasia within the Holy Trinity, but rather as a noetic union with God through a participation in His uncreated energies.

So, we do not progress in theosis because of a relationship with others (that is almost always incidental) but rather because of our participation in the Body of Christ which is found in its fullness where there is one bishop, surrounded by his monastics, clergy and laity all centered on the Eucharist.

"Likewise, the Orthodox embrace a "collectivist" approach to faith, but completely reject communism."

The collectivist mindset of the early Church which the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches have preserved, long preceded the communist perversion of that aspect of society.

4,984 posted on 12/08/2010 4:09:24 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; stfassisi; metmom; MarkBsnr
FK: "With this approach the relationship appears far less personal and direct. Or, the personal relationship is really with people, present or departed, instead of with God."

Kolo: Certainly we have these relationships among ourselves and very much so with the saints. This isn't the end purpose of what The Church teaches, though it is very nice, rather The Church teaches that within the ecclesia at the Divine Liturgy, we partake of the true Body and Blood of Christ

I suppose for the Protestants it is difficult to see that the Communion is believed to be the most direct participation with God, even more so than through prayer, because to them communion is a ritual of memorial significance and not a sacrament (mysterion).

FK: "Likewise, the Orthodox embrace a "collectivist" approach to faith, but completely reject communism."

Kolo: The collectivist mindset of the early Church which the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches have preserved, long preceded the communist perversion of that aspect of society.

Good answer, Kolo mou. However communism has no connection to Christian communion with God (i.e. becoming one with him through grace). Communism* is a Utopian state where all means of production and state wealth are supposed to be collectively owned and at a disposal of anyone who needs them. Of course no such state ever existed, except maybe in the most basic form on some California hippie commune.

*Distinguished from socialism, which is a transient state leading to communism in theory.

4,985 posted on 12/08/2010 4:51:27 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; stfassisi; metmom; MarkBsnr
So, we do not progress in theosis because of a relationship with others (that is almost always incidental) but rather because of our participation in the Body of Christ which is found in its fullness where there is one bishop, surrounded by his monastics, clergy and laity all centered on the Eucharist.

So if I'm following you, then the one-on-one, personal relationship, the direct interaction that is so important, is found mainly during the time of the Eucharist? If that is right (or close) then it would seem limiting to me because the real communication only happens at a specific place during specific times. I don't see how a CLOSE personal relationship can form under those circumstances. I don't say it's impossible, just something I can't identify with. For us, our "one-on-one" time is anywhere, anytime, 24/7/365. I consider those to be the conditions for the ultimate personal relationship.

5,073 posted on 12/10/2010 1:08:52 AM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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