[Kolokotronis]

We probably do disagree on what The Church is and where its fullness is found. For the Orthodox The Church, in all its fullness, is found where there is one bishop, surrounded by his monastics, clergy and laity all centered on the Eucharist. That, FK, is actually very "collectivist"; The Church is definitely NOT the hierachy or the clergy but rather the entire community and it is that entire community to which the promise of infallibility is given. The bishops teach but the people, within the ecclesia, are the judges of Orthodoxia, much as virtually all bishops try to avoid this and impose their will on The Church. In the end, they don't succeed, their skulls pave the floor of hell and Orthodoxia and Orthopraxia prevail.

I don't see where any of this is negated by pointing out that "God wants a personal relationship with each of us". He may very well. We as humans, however, are not "saved" in some divine vacuum, at least not the overwhelming majority of us. We advance in theosis and become like God, thus fulfilling our created purpose, within the liturgical community of The Church.

"It appears to be a presumption either way, in favor of Holy Spirit leading groups or individuals, based on our world views of the relationship God wants to have with us."

I like that, FK! The religiously individualistic mindset of the West since the Renaissance is particularly suited to Protestantism. This seems even more true since the Enlightenment. The East was and is a very different place. There was a real, "God Ordained" Emperor until 1453 and after that in Russia until 1917. And these empires were seen as imitations, flawed certainly, of the Empire of God. Everyone had a role and a place in these empires (this was true even under the Mohammedan caliphates, but those roles and places were all designed to create "heaven on earth" The more collectivist religious phronema of the East, therefore, developed earlier into a very very different way of looking theosis than developed in the West 1500 years later.

[Forest Keeper]

I don't see where any of this is negated by pointing out that "God wants a personal relationship with each of us". He may very well. We as humans, however, are not "saved" in some divine vacuum, at least not the overwhelming majority of us. We advance in theosis and become like God, thus fulfilling our created purpose, within the liturgical community of The Church.

It's relative and has to do with the middleman idea. If the fullness of the Church is found in "one bishop, surrounded by his monastics, clergy and laity all centered on the Eucharist" then there are extra layers in between God and His people. This is also true of praying to the Saints. With this approach the relationship appears far less personal and direct. Or, the personal relationship is really with people, present or departed, instead of with God. We would say that our equivalent of advancing in theosis, sanctification, is not seen as it relates to our relationships or standings with the clergy (confession) or Saints (prayer). Growth would come in part from taking both of those directly to God.

The more collectivist religious phronema of the East, therefore, developed earlier into a very very different way of looking theosis than developed in the West 1500 years later.

Thanks for the background. This would certainly match the "way of life" aspect of faith you and Kosta have explained to me, making a very strong culture an integral part of life in the faith. I think it's interesting that while Protestants would embrace the individualistic aspect of freedom of faith and personal relationship with God, we would completely reject the humanism that exploded during the Renaissance. Likewise, the Orthodox embrace a "collectivist" approach to faith, but completely reject communism.

[annalex]

The religiously individualistic mindset of the West since the Renaissance is particularly suited to Protestantism

This is a bit off-target, it seems. Renaissance is something quite antithetical to Protestantism, at least in its glorious Heaven-meets-Earth saints-filled celebratory art and architecture style. No wonder its main engine, Italy, was never in the least interested in Protestantism. I would say that Protestatism catered to the emerging artizan and merchant class, but absence of strong monarchies was actually more pronounced in the European Middle Ages than at the time when Protestantism came on the scene.

Madonna and Child with Saints

Andrea da Firenze

1360-62
Wood
Santa Maria del Carmine, Florence

Suited to Protestantism?