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To: Kolokotronis; caww; stfassisi; MarkBsnr; annalex
The Theotokos has never been worshiped. She is venerated, above all other creatures, but venerated, not worshiped. This seems to be a regular misunderstanding on FR

Kolo mou, everything you say about Theotokos, her humility, her pointing to Christ, etc. is true, but I am sorry to say this, we all also know that the Orthodox chant "Theotokos, save us."

And you know that I vehemently complained way back about people doing metania at the mention of her name (but not even bow at the mention of God), and that no one, among the clergy, ever corrected them, and I thought it an abomination and a scandal.

There is a Marian cult that subsists in the life of the Church, even if the Church stubbornly refuses to acknowledge it. It is wrong, it is heretical and it is pagan, and the Church refuses to stop it.

It is evident in the way people "venerate" her, and in the way the Church prays to her, asking her to "save" us. It's not veneration; it's adoration not only in the manner but in words as well.

4,689 posted on 12/04/2010 10:21:55 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; caww; stfassisi; MarkBsnr; annalex
""Theotokos, save us.""

Indeed we do chant exactly that. And you have complained about it in the past. You also know what the chant means and that it doesn't mean "save us" in the sense that Christ saves us. It is a plea that she pray for us that we be kept safe from danger, spiritual and physical, here on earth. Personally, I have never met an Orthodox Christian who believes otherwise, though perhaps you have.

"And you know that I vehemently complained way back about people doing metania at the mention of her name (but not even bow at the mention of God), and that no one, among the clergy, ever corrected them, and I thought it an abomination and a scandal.

I have never seen anyone do a metania at the mention of her name, though I certainly have seen it before her icons, and the icons of other saints for that matter. Perhaps what you have seen is a Slavic practice; maybe the actions of someone afflicted with "crazy convert disease"? Not bowing at the mention of God is scandalous, as much for the Latins as it is for us.

"It's not veneration; it's adoration not only in the manner but in words as well.

We will have to disagree on this one, Kosta mou.

4,696 posted on 12/04/2010 10:41:01 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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